JediDefender.com Forums
Community => Watto's Junk Yard => Topic started by: Chris on July 25, 2007, 09:28 PM
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We are considering implementing an unmoderated forum for the discussion of politics, religion, etc. This forum, as the name states, will not be moderated and anything will go (with the exception of nudity, etc). I'm interested in hearing your thoughts and feedback on the topic.
Thanks,
Chris
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Hey Chris,
I cannot frankly imagine how, if the contributors understand and agree that what happens in the "UMF" remains exclusively in the "UMF", such a forum would be anything less than beneficial to the site. I'm in favor, as I would love to participate in some political discussions.
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No nudity? What the ****??!!
I'm all for it, baby!
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Sounds like a cool idea to me.
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Hey Chris,
I cannot frankly imagine how, if the contributors understand and agree that what happens in the "UMF" remains exclusively in the "UMF", such a forum would be anything less than beneficial to the site. I'm in favor, as I would love to participate in some political discussions.
That's the real trick. Members have to keep their differences and petty squabbles from spilling out into the other parts of the Forum.
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I'd love that.
Give it a go and if it's a disaster, then kill it.
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That's fine as long as everyone respects each other's views and it doesn't turn into an alienation event of sorts.
It'd be nice if we could discuss current political events without the nasty catch-all labels of 'conservative' or 'liberal.'
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Considering the topic, I don't know if it's a good idea...
Some things just don't stay where they are...
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I don't think it's such a good idea. Although this is an older crowd, there's still a lot of younger people in here and I think the flaming and trolling would spill out into the other forums. I just think of the W&P thread at RS and what a disaster that was.
Hell...look at the latest crap in the 24 thread...plenty of stuff in there that really didn't need to be said and we don't even have an UMF yet. I think that kind of stuff would just get worse.
I come here for all things Star Wars and some other collecting...if I wanted Religion and Politics, there's plenty of other places for that on the net.
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I say we put restrictions on who could post. Say 1000 posts or more. Or 1 year of membership.
I know it sounds harsh but hey, it's a benefit -- similar to Yakpoints.
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Hell...look at the latest crap in the 24 thread...plenty of stuff in there that really didn't need to be said and we don't even have an UMF yet. I think that kind of stuff would just get worse.
You could argue that it wouldn't have happened at all if there was a designated place for those discussions.
We can delete anything that spills over.
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If it's going to be someplace worse than Watto's and Wuher's, you could make it a secret invite only type forum.
I like the idea, but there's no way the feelings would stay put. They'll leak out. Then again, they already do, so there shouldn't be much difference.
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My two cents...we toyed with this idea many times and never really did it...I think there is enough adult people here to make it fly and there is enough righties and lefties to keep it balanced.
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I think there is enough adult people here to make it fly and there is enough righties and lefties to keep it balanced.
Actually, there are a lot more righties than lefties in the world. If we have an unmoderated forum all the righties will be running around with their scissors taunting the lefties, "I can cut paper and you can't!" Then the lefties will be all like, "yeah, but we're more artistically inclined!" And the righties will have to be like, "Nuh-uh!"
And it just gets worse from there. :-*
E... (in favor of a UMF even if I might not post there much)
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I won't be posting in it myself... I have friends on both sides of the political fence and tend to just ignore them when I disagree with them for the sake of staying friends/happy. That said, I can attest that the staff here will be incredibly heavy-handed with any members who carry it outside this proposed forum.
I'm not personally completely in favor of it actually, however I agree that I feel a comparison with Rebelscum isn't really fair. They're far less moderated there and many of their "problems" aren't banned in the first place. Around here we happily give many people the boot for the sake of the community... You could have 10,000 posts here and you'd still get banned for being a dick.
I think we do have the "maturity" here... I like some of the suggestions too on time spent, post count/content, etc., as all criteria to be allowed in, however I do not have the expertise to know whether our software would allow those kinds of things to restrict or allow access and such. That'd be something Chris or Jeff would know.
I think the discussion, so far here, is at the very least a sign of the caliber of membership we have here, so that makes me happy unto itself. I'm sure this isn't something we're just jumping into though, and the discussion is incredibly helpful so feel free to keep it coming guys.
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I say we put restrictions on who could post. Say 1000 posts or more. Or 1 year of membership.
I know it sounds harsh but hey, it's a benefit -- similar to Yakpoints.
I disagree, in part. Arbitrary criteria for acceptance might serve as a disincentive for new, qualified posters to join the fold. I, personally, favor administrational discrimination with regards to:
1) Age (Cap it at 16, at the very least, with considerations towards people who petition for an exception)
&
2) Recent Post History (last 6-12 months)
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That's the real trick. Members have to keep their differences and petty squabbles from spilling out into the other parts of the Forum.
While the potential Politics forum would be (for the most part) unmoderated, any spillover into other areas of the forum as a result of something originating in the Politics forum wouldn't fly, and would be moderated, obviously. What happens in the Politics forum, stays in the Politics forum. As one might expect, those who dare to venture in there better do so with the understanding that they'll probably need to be fairly thick-skinned.
That said, it's not going to be a free pass for an all-out, no-holds-barred crazy insulting brawl in there. We're still hoping/expecting that people will try to act like mature adults and remain civil in there.
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Hell...look at the latest crap in the 24 thread...plenty of stuff in there that really didn't need to be said and we don't even have an UMF yet. I think that kind of stuff would just get worse.
I hardly think there was anything that bad said in that thread, in fact that was relatively tame and civil. I'm not really sure what you're referring to. Just the fact that politics *gasp* came up?
Anyhow, I'm all for this idea of a politics/religion section. But why not have a couple of moderators. Say, 1 conservative and 1 liberal? Or even 2 of each?
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I don't come here for politics and religion so it makes no difference to me. I won't be going in that thread unless I have a bad case of PMS. Also, as long as it stays in the thread and any over-spillage is cleaned up quickly and heavy-handed by the powers-that-be, I vote yes.
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I'm for it, but there has to be some sort of clean up crew if **** gets out of hand. I'm sure something can be worked out?
Kevin
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I know I am a part of the younger crowd on these boards, but I say go for it. I know I wouldn't participate in it, but I think others on these boards would enjoy it. In my 1 1/2 years of being a member here, I cannot recall any instances of certain members having problems with other members. (By members I mean people who contribute to the forums regularly; not trolls, post padders, people who continually post one word in each post, and other annoying people) The Mods and Admins here are awesome, so I'm sure any problems caused elsewhere by this proposed forum can be fixed.
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I have mix feelings on this Unmoderated Forum. Its good that we would have a place to keep all the political crap that people drop in other post at this site and others. Such as some of these comments in the Convention Section at RS:
what is it with badges. civ and now this. i think it is because california is run by bleeding heart liberals that sit around and sing kum by ya all day and don't do any work. just my 2 cents!
Last time I checked, the governor of California was a republican. Granted he's smarter by leaps and bounds than that idiot in the White House but he's no "bleeding heart liberal". Besides this country is in the crapper b/c of war happy conservatives.
And other comments like these.
The main problem would be like other have said the spill over in other sections of this fourm. If the Site Team watch the members who are hanging around in that section and make sure that nothing spills into the other section I say go for it.
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I would be all for it. It would be a throwback to years ago when we actually had a pretty good time debating issues, and I even made a few friends in the process. And with the smaller community here, the likelihood the thread will be dominated by dumbasses and pot-stirrers will be pretty low.
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Why not keep the oil and vinegar apart? Let's have a right (wrong) and left (right) forum. I think instead of a drag out bitch fest lacking in constructive criticism, we could use a place to go and discuss issues of the day without the opposing side sniping at each post. Especially with 08 already here in so many ways.
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Yes, but Dean, where would we lowly non-partisan few venture?
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Why not keep the oil and vinegar apart? Let's have a right (wrong) and left (right) forum.
Its comments like that which are lacking in constructive criticism. Its a great idea to be able to discuss the issues of the day without it turning into a "bitchfest". Those kinds of comments tend to start the bitchfests though.
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Why not keep the oil and vinegar apart? Let's have a right (wrong) and left (right) forum.
Its comments like that which are lacking in constructive criticism. Its a great idea to be able to discuss the issues of the day without it turning into a "bitchfest". Those kinds of comments tend to start the bitchfests though.
Only if you miss the humor and make it an attack, sweetheart. What did the your unedited post say?
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Yes, but Dean, where would we lowly non-partisan few venture?
Maybe in the trunk of your parents car? :-X
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Why not keep the oil and vinegar apart? Let's have a right (wrong) and left (right) forum.
Its comments like that which are lacking in constructive criticism. Its a great idea to be able to discuss the issues of the day without it turning into a "bitchfest". Those kinds of comments tend to start the bitchfests though.
Only if you miss the humor and make it an attack, sweetheart. What did the your unedited post say?
"criticisism" I forgot to spellcheck :-[
Unfortunately humor doesn't always transfer well in a political debate over the internet - especially when I think that you're left (wrong) ;)
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I see. You could have just copied all of my post and saved yourself most of the typing in yours.
I think you and I are usually in agreement more often than not.
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No Sir, I don't like it.
It will only serve to increase the bad blood between "opposing" members, and that will bleed over into other areas of the forum. It'll just be a rehash of the W&P threads from RS and GH, three and four years ago, and nothing positive or beneficial ever came out of those. Everybody's still on the same sides that they were back in those days.
There are plenty of other forums out there already for people to talk politics, and as much as it might be nice for JD to be one of the "big" SW forums that allows political discussion, I think the negatives would soon outweigh the positives.
And, "unmoderated forum" or no, that's still not gonna change the fact that George Bush sucks donkey balls.
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It will only serve to increase the bad blood between "opposing" members, and that will bleed over into other areas of the forum. It'll just be a rehash of the W&P threads from RS and GH, three and four years ago, and nothing positive or beneficial ever came out of those.
I don't remember seeing you there.
Everybody's still on the same sides that they were back in those days.
Definitely not the case.
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I don't remember seeing you there.
Faulty memory, on your part. I was there from time to time--just didn't post as often as everybody else did.
Definitely not the case.
How so? You're still a loyal Bushie, no matter how rotten a "president" he's been since then, aren't you?
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How so? You're still a loyal Bushie, no matter how rotten a "president" he's been since then, aren't you?
I guess until we have the new forum, I don't have a place to discuss this topic, now do I?
;)
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I guess until we have the new forum, I don't have a place to discuss this topic, now do I?
;)
I take it you're not a loyal Bushie anymore, then?
;)
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Yes, but Dean, where would we lowly non-partisan few venture?
Maybe in the trunk of your parents car? :-X
Tyranny of the majorities! Tyranny of the majorities! Why won't you Leftists allow us nonaligned social progressives to play in the park? :'(
It's because of the whole "foward-school" foreign policy, isn't it?
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This thread's already making my head hurt.
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Yes, but Dean, where would we lowly non-partisan few venture?
Maybe in the trunk of your parents car? :-X
Tyranny of the majorities! Tyranny of the majorities! Why won't you Leftists allow us nonaligned social progressives to play in the park? :'(
It's because of the whole "foward-school" foreign policy, isn't it?
No, it's because you don't know how to use the US mail system.
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Thanks for the input so far everyone. Keep it coming.
Also, as a side note- anyone who brings up politics in any other context but to debate the ability to discuss it will be suspended.
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Why not keep the oil and vinegar apart? Let's have a right (wrong) and left (right) forum. I think instead of a drag out bitch fest lacking in constructive criticism, we could use a place to go and discuss issues of the day without the opposing side sniping at each post. Especially with 08 already here in so many ways.
Communist.
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It does seem like the negatives outweigh the positives. I see this site as a place for like-minded people (regarding liking Star wars) to be a community. A thread that allows people to sling mud (well deserved or not) will hurt the spirit of the site. Frankly, I think we have a hard enough time getting along even in the semi-controlled environment in which we currently operate.
The anonymity of typing at a screen seems to disinhibit some tongues as it is. I'm all for progressive politics where people actually discuss and debate ideas rather than accepting whatever spin is currently on television, but I want my Star Wars sites to stick to Star Wars. Just an opinion.
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As much as I do enjoy talking politics and religion, if you guys start this section I am going to do my best to avoid it. I commend you Chris for looking into this and asking for feedback from the group. But I'm afraid it will do more harm than good; as it runs a big risk of causing bad blood between forum members like Matt pointed out.
:P
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No, it's because you don't know how to use the US mail system.
Yeah, check your Private Messages.
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Its an interesting discussion but i can only see it starting off well and escalating into problems. You said anything goes, so does that mean true racist and sexist comments are allowed. People can make good arguments that are blatantly wrong. Good debates can turn into verbal bashing especially when it comes to religion and politics. I would probbaly stay away from it if it did happen.
Add me into the yes pile for the nudity section of the forum though. ;) ;D
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I think it's a bad idea, mainly because Dressel is such a goddamned *******. :-*
But seriously, what would be the point? RocketFett doesn't post here.
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I think it's a bad idea, mainly because Dressel is such a goddamned *******. :-*
I understand why giving me a platform to again mentally kick your ass would present a problem for you. ;)
But seriously, what would be the point? RocketFett doesn't post here.
If you build it, they will come.
(http://www.sun-inet.or.jp/~mlbddf/field_of_dreams.jpg)
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See?
*******.
Tell Georgie how right you were about everything, darling, because he'd be the only one buying what you were selling.
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See?
*******.
Tell Georgie how right you were about everything, darling, because he'd be the only one buying what you were selling.
I'd respond, but I'll wait for the forum, if we get one.
As for you...
Thanks for the input so far everyone. Keep it coming.
Also, as a side note- anyone who brings up politics in any other context but to debate the ability to discuss it will be suspended.
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Anyhow, I'm all for this idea of a politics/religion section. But why not have a couple of moderators. Say, 1 conservative and 1 liberal? Or even 2 of each?
I nominate myself and Dressel on the conservative side. 8)
To the statement that "nothing good ever came of the W&P thread" - I say that the intellectual exchange on difficult and divisive topics is in and of itself a positive outcome. I find few other things as mentally stimulating. Most people probably view it as bickering, but you don't know the creativity necessary to generate the arguments and responses.
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I didn't see anything positive that came from the previous threads at RS and GH. All I saw was a couple of ultimately-closed threads. The first, RS closed because some ******bag put up a link to a video of some dude getting his head cut off, and the second, GH closed because all the douchebags from the closed RS thread came over and used GH like a three-dollar crack whore to post their political bull****--for the most part, contributing nothing else to the site at all, either during the W & P days, or even after their W & P thread was closed. A lot of those people haven't been back to GH since.
I don't think that's a very good legacy to want to continue at JD.
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GH closed because all the douchebags from the closed RS thread came over and used GH like a three-dollar crack whore to post their political bull****--for the most part, contributing nothing else to the site at all, either during the W & P days, or even after their W & P thread was closed. A lot of those people haven't been back to GH since.
What are you trying to say? (http://www.galactichunter.com/ubbthreads/dosearch.php?Cat=&Forum=All_Forums&Words=1506&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts)
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GH closed because all the douchebags from the closed RS thread came over and used GH like a three-dollar crack whore to post their political ********--for the most part, contributing nothing else to the site at all, either during the W & P days, or even after their W & P thread was closed. A lot of those people haven't been back to GH since.
What are you trying to say? (http://www.galactichunter.com/ubbthreads/dosearch.php?Cat=&Forum=All_Forums&Words=1506&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts)
Yeah but in my defense I was drinking a lot of coffee back then, and I've since switched to decaf.
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Maybe Matt's right...whatever the outcome, it won't be pretty.
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GH closed because all the douchebags from the closed RS thread came over and used GH like a three-dollar crack whore to post their political bull****--for the most part, contributing nothing else to the site at all, either during the W & P days, or even after their W & P thread was closed. A lot of those people haven't been back to GH since.
That's because GH is lame.
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Again, I think that the overall result of allowing this would be bad. Not just for JD but for the community. I do think that one side (yes, I am biased - the conservatives) would be able to conduct themselves in a more civil manner and not let it bleed over, but there are some people who won't be able to control themselves.
Plus there's already more than enough undeserved disrespect thrown around by some members at our president, at each other, and even at other Star Wars fan sites - and this would only make it worse. If this were to be allowed, and I joined in on the debates, there would be a very conservative Wookiee added to the mix... but things like this divide the community, not bring it closer togther...
:P
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... but things like this divide the community, not bring it closer togther...
:P
I don't recall reading "bring the community closer together" listed anywhere in the reasons for creating an unmoderated forum. Maybe we should start a "gentle hugs" forum?
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... but things like this divide the community, not bring it closer togther...
:P
I don't recall reading "bring the community closer together" listed anywhere in the reasons for creating an unmoderated forum. Maybe we should start a "gentle hugs" forum?
::)
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I feel that, while a good natured attempt to expanding the JD 'experience', I think it will ultimately be a failure. I believe the 'experiment' will cause (or broaden ;)) further animosity between members, that there is no way of preventing spill-over. Regardless of 'spilleage control', mind control cannot be done. Once some folks have made up there minds about others based on their political/religious views it would be hard to change them. While I personally would not hold someones' beliefs against them based on politics, I cannot make guarantees others would not.
Since I care to a lesser extent of others personal negative views towards what I would say in a proposed thread, my concern would be more for between others members and the sites' health thereafter.
While I've seen it mentioned here that 'we're mostly adults in here' that we 'should be able to handle ourselves maturely' I feel that even adults can become opinionated and hateful and being 'mature' or 'adult' really has little to do with this. A quick view of CSPAN, FOXNEWS, CNN ect and several others channels on TV and within a couple hours 'adults' of all types can be viseably watched becoming unglued.
So my feeling is...
If we're willing to risk the integrity of our website lets go ahead and do this then :P.
The DS
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Maybe we should start a "gentle hugs" forum?
I like it. It'd be like a message board version of a cuddle party (http://www.jedidefender.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=4979.0).
I'm down.
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You know, I was going to make a post echoing what has already been said, but after reading through the posts in this thread I realized that a UMF isn't going to make JD any different. We already have members who disagree on certain issues but are able to maintain their composure in other parts of the forums. What would the UMF do to change this? Besides, if things DO get out of hand we have the mods who can quickly clean up any mess that's created.
I say go for it. We don't really have anything to lose.
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Besides, if things DO get out of hand we have the mods who can quickly clean up any mess that's created.
I say go for it. We don't really have anything to lose.
Hmmm... but if it's unmoderated then just how will they do that?
We don't have anything to lose...? Interesting.
DS
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Besides, if things DO get out of hand we have the mods who can quickly clean up any mess that's created.
I say go for it. We don't really have anything to lose.
Hmmm... but if it's unmoderated then just how will they do that?
We don't have anything to lose...? Interesting.
DS
I meant that as in if a "feud" were to spill over into the Hasbro section of the site then the mods could clean it up quickly.
And by my second comment, we really don't have anything to lose, IMO. It's not like anyone's going to look down on this site for trying something different (different for SW sites at least).
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... but things like this divide the community, not bring it closer togther...
:P
I don't recall reading "bring the community closer together" listed anywhere in the reasons for creating an unmoderated forum. Maybe we should start a "gentle hugs" forum?
::)
(http://sheknows.com/graphics/emoticons/bighug.gif)
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I meant that as in if a "feud" were to spill over into the Hasbro section of the site then the mods could clean it up quickly.
And by my second comment, we really don't have anything to lose, IMO. It's not like anyone's going to look down on this site for trying something different (different for SW sites at least).
-Oh, OK.
-You're right, I guess instead we would be retrying failed experiments from other sites because folks believe our site is good enough to handle it and that it could work here. In case you don't understand this I view tons of locked political threads at other sites as failed attempts to have them.
DS
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I meant that as in if a "feud" were to spill over into the Hasbro section of the site then the mods could clean it up quickly.
And by my second comment, we really don't have anything to lose, IMO. It's not like anyone's going to look down on this site for trying something different (different for SW sites at least).
-Oh, OK.
-You're right, I guess instead we would be retrying failed experiments from other sites because folks believe our site is good enough to handle it and that it could work here. In case you don't understand this I view tons of locked political threads at other sites as failed attempts to have them.
DS
The other two main Star Wars sites that attempted this in the past have both seen that no good would come out of it and lock (plus ban) any political debates threads up quickly now. I don't think the few regular poster who have posted in the past at RS's or GH's politics thread would be a big problem as oppose to those who will just come over here and post exclusively in that one here. I had seen it with both of those other sites. As soon as they locked it up main regular poster in those threads were saying "Since this thread closed goodbye, everyone". It is these people that I have a feeling would cause trouble for the site as a whole, even with our staff doing a good job at stopping stuff.
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Totally agree Tom, site integrity IS something to lose and not worth the risk.
I don't know I guess I just don't understand why we would take the chance and risk a high possibility problem element and include it here....
DS
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As soon as they locked it up main regular poster in those threads were saying "Since this thread closed goodbye, everyone". It is these people that I have a feeling would cause trouble for the site as a whole. . .
I'm not following the logic here. If the "one thread wonders," as the GH folks so aptly put it, were to take off once the thread was shut down, then how/why would they stick around to cause trouble for the site?
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Creating an unmoderated forum is only going to further divide the membership. Certainly the idea of a forum with free speech is a great thing conceptually. A vigorous public discourse is an essential part of a free society. But as for websites that are devoted to Star Wars collecting? It's probably not a good idea.
The track record is already there. Just check out the RS and GH forums. It got UGLY. And it definitely spilled out beyond the political threads in those forums. And to think that people would be able to compartmentalize those socio-political discussions from others is just naive. People's belief systems are so strongly engrained that attempting to seperate them from everyday discussion is extremely difficult. Certainly one would like to think that an adult can rationally divide their political views from interpersonal relationships, but that just isn't the case. Plus, you have to account for the fact that not everyone is a good enough writer in a forum environment to convey when they're being serious, snarky or just ridiculous. That in and of itself is a huge cause for many a misunderstanding. And most likely you're also going to draw users who are here solely for that unmoderated forum and don't add anything else to the site.
The integrity of the site would definitely be placed in jeopardy by this kind of scenario. I think you would slowly see a breakdown in general civility across the site, followed by flareups here and there in unrelated forums. And I don't think it's fair to those moderators who are supposed to be shepherding Star Wars discussions to have to squash disputes that are going to be started in the unmoderated forum.
And you know what else? There are plenty of websites all over the internet where socio/political/religious discussions are thriving. They're just a few clicks away, and that's what those websites are dedicated to. I don't think that a social experiment is the right reason for tearing apart one of the more cohesive and cool Star Wars collecting forums on the web.
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can't we just have a topless forum instead?
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And I don't think it's fair to those moderators who are supposed to be shepherding Star Wars discussions to have to squash disputes that are going to be started in the unmoderated forum.
Very good point. Ultimately I think that's who will go through the biggest headache if this ends up going live.
can't we just have a topless forum instead?
LMAO!
:P
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can't we just have a topless forum instead?
I strongly agree with this idea.
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Thanks for the input. We have decided to give this a try and see how it works out. The forum can be found under Watto's Junk Yard, it is appropriately called "Sarlacc Pit".