JediDefender.com Forums
Multimedia => The Prequel Trilogy => Topic started by: Phrubruh on July 23, 2008, 02:16 PM
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After all the mistakes we see Yoda make during the prequal trilogy, Yoda goes into hiding. Shouldn't he have tried to get in contact with the surviving Jedi, regroup and retrain to go against the Emporer and Vader?
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Maybe Yoda's just feeling his age and knowing he's not as powerful as he once was?
Mace mentions too, "we're not warriors", and QGJ as well mentions the inability of the Jedi to wage a war... Leaders of men, maybe, but not warriors per se.
Just some random thoughts as to maybe why Yoda went into hiding... Perhaps it was also with the thought of helping from afar too? They didn't know about Luke/Leia at this point really to say that he was leaving with the intent of training one or both of them later. Not really sure... I found his leaving the battle with Palpatine a little odd. He sort of had the old man at various points.
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The thing is the Jedi sure acted like warriors during the clone wars. It just seems strange that Yoda would allow the Sith to run rampant for twenty years unchecked without trying to form an underground movement of surviving Jedi and help the rebellion in someway. Instead Yoda just goes crazy in exile and doesn't initially want to train Luke even though that was his plan originally. I guess that was suppost to be Obiwan's job. If Obiwan was dead, Yoda needed to step up.
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Instead Yoda just goes crazy in exile and doesn't initially want to train Luke even though that was his plan originally. I guess that was suppost to be Obiwan's job. If Obiwan was dead, Yoda needed to step up.
I thought Yoda's "reluctance" to train Luke was merely another test, to see if Luke was committed to training.
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They acted like warriors cause there was more then 2 of them left and they had an army at there call. The galaxy is against them look at all the cheers for Palps when the Empire is born, no one really cares about the Jedi and no one is brave enough to defend them. I think Yoda feels that Luke/Leia are the last hope for the galaxy and that only a descendant from the Chosen One would be able to defeat them. I read somewhere that Anakin precrispy was like at 110% and postcrispy was 80% and so the 2 children coming from a father with that strong of power/connection to the Force could kick both of the Sith's a$$'s, so point being Yoda was saving himself for them, Luke/Leia, for who else could've trained them.
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I go a completely different way on this.
The whole point of the Prequel Trilogy (to me) is that the Jedi were doing things the wrong way and wound up getting destroyed because of it. The only Jedi who got it right was Qui-Gon Jinn--rather than listen to the Jedi Code and the millenia of assumptions made there, he listens to the Living Force.
When the Jedi die in the Geonosis Arena, they are gone. When Qui-Gon died, he continued to exist as a part of the Living Force, to the point where he could communicate with Yoda (seen in AOTC) and eventually Obi-Wan (cut from ROTS).
Yoda sees the triumph of Qui-Gon at last when he is nearly defeated by Sidious. If he had died then, it would have been over. To truly be able to defeat the Emperor, he will need to be able to go on even after dying. So he goes into exile, to learn from Qui-Gon's spirit how to fully commune with the Living Force, and effectively admits the Jedi Order was wrong all this time.
None of this even touches on the Skywalker kids (who I think Yoda did not want trained, but that is a different subject entirely.)
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None of this even touches on the Skywalker kids (who I think Yoda did not want trained, but that is a different subject entirely.)
Hmm...if Obi-Wan & Yoda learn about the living force only after they go into hiding, how did Anakin learn about the living force (since his spirit appears at the end of ROTJ)? Who taught Anakin?!
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None of this even touches on the Skywalker kids (who I think Yoda did not want trained, but that is a different subject entirely.)
Hmm...if Obi-Wan & Yoda learn about the living force only after they go into hiding, how did Anakin learn about the living force (since his spirit appears at the end of ROTJ)? Who taught Anakin?!
Shhh... You're making too much sense...
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None of this even touches on the Skywalker kids (who I think Yoda did not want trained, but that is a different subject entirely.)
Hmm...if Obi-Wan & Yoda learn about the living force only after they go into hiding, how did Anakin learn about the living force (since his spirit appears at the end of ROTJ)? Who taught Anakin?!
It's a bit of a stretch, but maybe the combined powers of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Qui-Gon were able to help him 'ascend'? Obi-Wan tells Vader that striking him down will make him more powerful than he could possibly imagine. Just showing up as a glowing blue ghost every now and again doesn't seem like that much of an upgrade... They had to be able to do **** other than just talk to people from the grave, right?
It sure would have been great if they explained that in ROTS somewhere...
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Doing something like this would just be a great way for Vader to find more Jedi. Big groups of Jedi in training would be a risky move. And also, how could Yoda communicate with the large handfuls of Jedi that had survived Order 66?
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I think MP has a valid point here. What exactly was Yoda waiting for for 20 years? If he was waiting to learn how to ascend to a higher plane, how the heck was that ever going to help overthrow the Emperor? His spirit would be no better at training than his flesh would be. And yeah, it would be hard to seek out other Jedi, but Vader sought out and found scores of hidden Jedi after the initial purge, so its obviously not impossible. How about continuing to look for infants and train them? The guy is in full excile away from other sentients out of communication - sure doesn't seem like there is a plan there. And I agree that he didn't want to train Luke (or Leia) especially later on for fear of creating an even stronger Sith given the experience with Anakin.
For that matter, why doesn't Obi-Wan take a more active role in training Luke? He's living nearby and obviously keeping an eye on him, but makes no move to train him in the ways of the force until he's older? I thought the key downfall of Anakin was that he had already learned emotional attachment by the time they decided to train him and his fear of loss drove him to the dark side...sure doesn't seem like Obi-Wan was doing much to prevent that from happening again.
Personally, I think Yoda went into exile because he was shamed and defeated. He led the Jedi and they were all killed off. He got the wool pulled over his eyes and lost all his buddies, then got beaten by a Sith Lord in combat - a sith lord with some pretty massive resources now at his disposal. I think Yoda took the blame and isolated himself to escape. It's only thru Obi-Wan's direction and influence that Luke makes it there to get trained. I also think Obi-Wan intended to train Luke (or maybe even Leia) all along, but was hindered somehow. Owen calls him a crazy old hermit in ANH - maybe Owen and Beru forbid it and all Obi could do was wait and watch.
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Personally, I think Yoda went into exile because he was shamed and defeated. He led the Jedi and they were all killed off. He got the wool pulled over his eyes and lost all his buddies, then got beaten by a Sith Lord in combat - a sith lord with some pretty massive resources now at his disposal. I think Yoda took the blame and isolated himself to escape. It's only thru Obi-Wan's direction and influence that Luke makes it there to get trained. I also think Obi-Wan intended to train Luke (or maybe even Leia) all along, but was hindered somehow. Owen calls him a crazy old hermit in ANH - maybe Owen and Beru forbid it and all Obi could do was wait and watch.
Good points Justin - just more holes in the trilogy I suppose. I'm watching ESB on Spike right now....How long does everybody think Luke's Jedi "training" is on Dagobah? Seems like less than a day in my eyes with Han/Leia/Chewy/3PO flying around trying to lay low, but maybe I'm wrong. Didn't it take years and years to train the younglings - even Anakin?
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My guess on the Dagobah training was it was months. Without a working hyperdrive, it would've taken a looong time for the Falcon to get to Bespin.
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Hmmn...another good question Mike. I never really thought about that before, but I'm going to guess it was at least a week or two. Months seems like a more realistic answer, but it sure doesn't seem like the Falcon is hobbling along for months. I could believe a week, maybe two given they all have the same outfits and look the same from the asteroid to Lando's pad.
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I don't think Leia kept alot of different outfits on the Falcon. Chewie doesn't wear clothes. As for Han, I think alot of us look pretty much the same from day to day as far as what we wear.
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I don't think Leia kept alot of different outfits on the Falcon. Chewie doesn't wear clothes. As for Han, I think alot of us look pretty much the same from day to day as far as what we wear.
Not sure about you, but I have more than one shirt and pair of pants, so I will likely look a little different from day to day. I can guarantee that if I was trapped on a ship for a month - a ship I used as my home, I would have a change of outfit and look different than I had a month prior. The fact that the characters all look pretty identical to when they were in the asteroid suggests that they weren't habbling along in space for quite that long.
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I don't think Leia kept alot of different outfits on the Falcon. Chewie doesn't wear clothes. As for Han, I think alot of us look pretty much the same from day to day as far as what we wear.
Not sure about you, but I have more than one shirt and pair of pants, so I will likely look a little different from day to day. I can guarantee that if I was trapped on a ship for a month - a ship I used as my home, I would have a change of outfit and look different than I had a month prior. The fact that the characters all look pretty identical to when they were in the asteroid suggests that they weren't habbling along in space for quite that long.
I would assume that Leia didn't have a change of clothes at all - she wasn't planning on leaving Hoth on the Falcon. That was a last-minute change when she was unable to get to her transport.
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I don't think Leia kept alot of different outfits on the Falcon. Chewie doesn't wear clothes. As for Han, I think alot of us look pretty much the same from day to day as far as what we wear.
Not sure about you, but I have more than one shirt and pair of pants, so I will likely look a little different from day to day. I can guarantee that if I was trapped on a ship for a month - a ship I used as my home, I would have a change of outfit and look different than I had a month prior. The fact that the characters all look pretty identical to when they were in the asteroid suggests that they weren't habbling along in space for quite that long.
I would assume that Leia didn't have a change of clothes at all - she wasn't planning on leaving Hoth on the Falcon. That was a last-minute change when she was unable to get to her transport.
I'm totally in agreement on Leia's outfit, though I'd argue that month(s) of wearing the same thing would make her clothes look a little disheveled. Likewise I think her general appearance might look a little more haggard based on your arguement - she wouldn't have had time to grab a make-up kit or lipstick or hair products either, yet she looks about the same when they get to Bespin as when she left Hoth.
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Han probably didn't have a change in the Falcon either as they had to evacuate the base as soon as they could. Maybe he didn't like leaving clothes in there for that funky Falcon smell. ;)
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Han probably didn't have a change in the Falcon either as they had to evacuate the base as soon as they could. Maybe he didn't like leaving clothes in there for that funky Falcon smell. ;)
Well........Han was planning on leaving........so maybe he was already loaded up.......
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It was definitely more than just an overnight flight. Remember Han's comment about Bespin being pretty far, but we can make it? Also there is the issue of the Empire arriving before Han did, thereby leaving Lando no choice. I figure they had to fly a couple days, up to a week or two, just to get to Bespin (thereby giving Boba a chance to track them, then jump ahead of the Falcon, call in the Empire and lean on Lando. This would also give Luke a couple weeks on Dagobah for his training (probably the fastest novice to nearly knight in history....).
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It was definitely more than just an overnight flight. Remember Han's comment about Bespin being pretty far, but we can make it? Also there is the issue of the Empire arriving before Han did, thereby leaving Lando no choice. I figure they had to fly a couple days, up to a week or two, just to get to Bespin (thereby giving Boba a chance to track them, then jump ahead of the Falcon, call in the Empire and lean on Lando. This would also give Luke a couple weeks on Dagobah for his training (probably the fastest novice to nearly knight in history....).
Agreed - I think a couple of weeks seems about right. Regarding Luke's training - keep in mind that he did have some training from Ben before and after his demise. I'd still agree that he had far less training than anyone else getting to JK, but he wasn't a total noob when he reached Yoda.
Which brings us back to the original topic. I initially thought Yoda was pretty cowardly to not do more after exiling himself. After mulling this over a bit though, I wonder if maybe he had visions of the future like many Jedi do and came to realize that his best option was to wait on Dagobah for Luke. I like the sound of that more than him just being defeated and guilt-ridden at the end of his life.
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Me too. I would much rather think that Yoda had faith in the force. I always though of him as a wise old sage who was content to let the force lead him to whatever it held for him. Or led Luke to him as the case may be. I never thought of him as a failure or cowering in fear or self-pity.
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I took his line in ROTS about "going into exile" or whatever as his understanding that the course of action he'd been taking (direct confrontation of Palpatine) wasn't the direction the force was directing him to take, so he was taking that direction. Basically he'd come to realize that he couldn't match power for power and another approach was necessary.
Speaking of not packing a change of clothes; I bet Yoda was pretty ripe considering he didn't appear to bring a change of clothes with him either when he fled Kashyyyk and then Coruscant, then spent the next 20 years in a swamp.... ;D
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I took his line in ROTS about "going into exile" or whatever as his understanding that the course of action he'd been taking (direct confrontation of Palpatine) wasn't the direction the force was directing him to take, so he was taking that direction. Basically he'd come to realize that he couldn't match power for power and another approach was necessary.
Maybe. This is just another case where Lucas should have added a line or two to provide more connection to the OT. It would have been easy enough for Yoda to just say something like, "Into exile to meditate on our next course of action I must go. Foresee I do, possibility of a new hope in the distant future."
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It would have been easy enough for Yoda to just say something like, "Into exile to meditate on our next course of action I must go. Foresee I do, possibility of a new hope in the distant future."
Ick. That's pure cheese. I catch your drift though.
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It would have been easy enough for Yoda to just say something like, "Into exile to meditate on our next course of action I must go. Foresee I do, possibility of a new hope in the distant future."
Ick. That's pure cheese. I catch your drift though.
It goes perfectly with the rest of the script's dialog.
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Did someone say 'cheese'?
But I think Justin's idea would have been a better thing for Yoda to say instead of admitting defeat and somewhat out of the blue deciding to go into exile.
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All I thought was cheese was the new hope line. Kinda like saying YOOO JOEEE! in the Joe flick...meh..probably just me though.
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I was surprised to see the title of this thread when I was viewing the main page of the boards so I had to take a look.
My thoughts on Yoda's exile when taking the Prequels into account is that the power of the dark side which had hid Palpatine's machinations from the Jedi for almost a generation and led to the Clone Wars and the Purge is what led Yoda to his self-imposed exile. He didn't have the power to defeat Palpatine on his own and knew he had to get away at the very least to save himself to help with the future - the training of Luke and Leia. Having felt the deaths of so many other Jedi, yet taking into account the dark influence over the Force at the time, Yoda may very well have believed he and Obi-Wan were the last of the Jedi and being incapable of defeating Palpatine (remember they think at this point Anakin is dead) figure the best course of action is to go into hiding and re-group when the twins are ready for their destiny.
Someone brought up why doesn't Yoda go searching for the survivors of the Purge as Vader was easily able to find them. Keep in mind Vader had the vast resources of a Galactic Empire to hunt down the Jedi. There were Imperial Forces - Stormtroopers, Dark Jedi, Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands, etc - all across the galaxy keeping an eye out for Jedi, this is something Yoda did not have available to him. Assuming he knew there were survivors he may have thought it best not to look for Jedi in the belief that it may help them survive longer. Palpatine and Vader essentially know Yoda survived the Senate Duel so they would be keeping an eye out for him and one would assume he's a big target in the Force (I know doesn't exactly explain why he wasn't found on Dagobah) so Yoda looking for Jedi might not have been the best idea at the time. There's also the technological impact, after hiding away on Dagobah for so long, it's possible that little Wookiee ship he was on would be incapable of flying him across the galaxy in search of Jedi, essentially leaving him stuck on Dagobah until someone (Luke, Leia, or Obi-Wan) came to him.
One of the problems with the Prequels is that it's warped the scope of the Original Trilogy. If you read any of the pre-production work for A New Hope and the other two movies you can tell Lucas initially had different ideas for the time between the Clone Wars and Luke's Jedi training than what the Prequels give us. In the early ideas for Star Wars, the Jedi were wiped out long ago and there had been no survivors for a lot longer than the handful of years we find it out to be thanks to the Prequels and EU. So Yoda being in hiding is much easier to explain since it can be assumed that there have been no Jedi for 40, 50, 100 years. But the events of the Prequels change that and thus we have to change our viewpoint on the actions of Yoda and Obi-Wan. I think we find that their actions are made out of a belief that they (and perhaps any Jedi survivors, whether or not they are known) are incapable of stopping Palpatine and as mentioned that only Luke and Leia can do it. But if they do anything before the twins are ready to take on their destiny they risk the chance of destroying their only hope - which would be why Obi-Wan doesn't attempt to train Luke - sidebar on that point when isolating ANH on it's own and from a storytelling pov, Luke can't be trained until a personal trauma (the death of his family) leads him down the path of abandoning his current way of life to follow his destiny.
Oh and as far as how long the events of ESB take, I always felt it was a couple of months. As mentioned, the Falcon did not have a fully functional hyperdrive after they escaped the Imperial fleet so on sub-light and assuming their current position was less than one light year from Bespin, this timeframe could be months. Also there's a lot of training for Luke to do, despite his affinity for the Force I highly doubt he could learn all he did in just a few days. From a storytelling pov that's not believable, which yes I know is saying a lot when you take into account some of Lucas' work in the Prequels. As for Han and Leia's clothing, my guess would be they shared some of Han's clothes on the Falcon (he should have some sort of laundry unit on the ship) and that when they got to Bespin any additional clothes they received were either gifts from Lando or bought with any money they had or perhaps earned (Han could have always won a few hands at Sabacc).
Ok so that was a lot, you can see I think an awful lot on this kind of stuff - 30+ years of viewing the movies and reading the EU gives the opportunity to expand what we think and know from Star Wars to fit it into our own liking. This is how I personally can fit much of the EU into the Saga and resolve conflicts like the various timelines created by the comics between ANH and ESB (Marvel, Sunday Comics, Dark Horse) and that's what is best about Star Wars. Regardless of what Lucas has written, especially with the Prequels in contradiction to the Original Trilogy, we as the audience can decide what has truly happened at least for us individually.
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I was surprised to see the title of this thread when I was viewing the main page of the boards so I had to take a look...
Well, couple of things here:
#1 - I don't get your rationale on why Obi-Wan couldn't train Luke. He could have easily set up some kind of deal with the Lars family to train him periodically or be some weird uncle that helps him. If you're syaing Obi-Wan just had to sit and wait for something like his aunt and uncle to get crispy-fried, that seems like a pretty weak strategy for Obi-Wan. It also doesn't jive with the movie, since Obi-Wan asks Luke to join him BEFORE anyone knows what happened to Owen and Beru.
#2 - Months on the Falcon still doesn't make sense to me. Your rationale on clothing doesn't make sense - the issue is that Han and Leia look pretty much the same coming out of the Falcon to greet Lando as when they escaped Hoth. Lando didn't give them clothes prior to their landing did he? Maybe they cleaned up and just coincidentally looked similar, but its a valid plot hole in my opinion. Even if it was just a few weeks, I don't see how Leia could have fixed herself up and I seriously doubt that Han carries make-up and hair care products on the Falcon.
All I thought was cheese was the new hope line. Kinda like saying YOOO JOEEE! in the Joe flick...meh..probably just me though.
Don't even tell me that the Joe's don't yell this in the movie. Do the bad guys at least yell "Cobra! Cobra! Cobra!" before they start shooting? ;)
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Not to side track this discussion further, and maybe this is more of a comment that the OT purists would appreciate, but wouldn't you think that Obi-Wan would look back on the clone wars with a less than favorable light, given the suffering that Palpatine had orchestrated simply to kill the jedi? When you watch ANH, Luke seems slightly impressed that he fought in the Clone Wars and Obi-Wan seems to have a slightly whistful look on his face, like it was a great time for him. I guess it all comes down to the time frames that Lucas established for the PT, but when you only look at the OT, Obi-Wan looks back fondly on that time ("before the dark time, before the Empire"), while the ROTS Obi-Wan recognizes that they were taken in by the Emperors plot.
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I thought he was looking back fondly of the days of the Jedi....not necessarily the Clone Wars.