<snip>

So until I see one of these clean shaven HRS show up on eBay in the Blue/White packaging, I'm going to hope that Darryl DeRetard (sorry, I'm sure he's a "great" guy, but moves like this show how he DOESN'T get or care about the collectors of the line) was just talking out of his ass when he gave Nick this info.

Dealing with factories in China-- and this is something that I've had a little experience with-- can be difficult when it comes to communication.  When it comes to running changes and variations that's where the communication ball gets dropped the most.  Particularly when it comes to the factories not getting the "use this mold with this deco" memo right-- it happens a lot, particularly in the Saga Legends wave, the IG-88 vintage figure's blaster holster, and that new Chewbacca come to mind. 

The original plan in 2000/2001 was to get variant head Imp Officers and Rebel Troopers in POTJ packaging, and they didn't hit until early 2003.  Things happen.  With no clean-shaven Rebel Troopers existing in official Hasbro photography, I'd be willing to actually bet money on the fact that it simply isn't coming on blue cards, period.  Maybe we'll see it in 2010 in whatever comes after red card Legacy, or if we're really lucky, some Battle Pack with multiple variants.

...or maybe in some future Order 66-esque trooper 2-packs... that'd be swell.

As someone who both both the regular AOTC Wave 7 case AND the Wave 7 Revision case just to ensure that I would get all of the remaining numbered Legacy Collection Blue/White figures to add to my MOC collection - this news out of Comic Con REALLY pisses me off.

I got both cases too, and that's why I'm happy it doesn't actually exist yet.  If it doesn't exist it's not like you missed out on something.  If it did exist, well, then yeah I'd get pissy, particularly since the trooper is such a nicely made design.  (I'd probably buy more beardoes if I could find 'em.)

I was just trying to do some quick math, anyone have any concept of how many complete sets the typical Walmart store would have of these?  I'd guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 sets * 5 packs per set * 3700 stores * $17 per = about $9.4 mil gross sales.

I can pretty much guarantee Hasbro isn't making 111,000 of each 2-pack, as your numbers would estimate.  Since we don't know the markups-- margins on Hasbro Star Wars toys tend to be pretty thin, history shows-- they may not be making quite what you think.  I think Kenner 1990s items did some items in the 100k range based on leaked data, but verrrrry few exclusives were that high.   (As in, I've only heard of one in particular with those kind of numbers, and I haven't been able to get a second confirmation on it.  A lot of the 12-inch exclusives were supposedly closer to 20k.)

Based on last year's various exclusive numbers as printed on some areas, I would guesstimate the run is 30k-45k sets (150k-225k individual 2-packs), tops.  With the higher prices, it might mean that Wal-Mart insisted on a smaller run and passed the anti-savings associated with a reduced quantity along to us.

My Wal-Mart got 4 of this year's sets.  Last year, most of my local stores got 0 (that I saw on visits every 2-3 days), but one got about a dozen which languished for a few weeks.   I may be wrong, but didn't Hasbro also say this run was going to be lower than last year's while at Comic-Con?  If accurate, that explains the higher prices and probably means my numbers are <i>way</i> too high.

People are not satisfied because the issue of likeness can be easily worked around as I mentioned in a previous discussion on the topic (not to stray away from the Willrow Hood topic, but this deserves an answer I think)...

I'm of the thinking that these are still valid choices to suggest as Hasbro could still make these figures IF they were not to use the likenesses of the actresses. The headsculpts and any packaging material can be made such that they do not look like the actresses - we know Hasbro already does this as many times the headsculpts don't match the actors and they use stylized imagery for their packaging. Unless Lucasfilm puts the kabosh on this, I don't see any reason for Hasbro not making the figures so long as they don't resemble the actresses that played the characters. In fact you can go one step further, in EU the two women we see in the Cantina have been established as NOT being the Tonnika Sisters, but instead members of the Mistryl Shadow Guard. So in essence Hasbro could create a new look facial look for the sisters with the proper explanation in the bio.

IANAL, but let's look at the line over the years.  Likeness isn't necessarily about quality-- there's a fine line and after talking to toy companies, I'm still trying to figure it out.  Brick figures (Kubricks, Minimates) seem to be "parody" because there's no nose and there's a vague resemblance to an actual human being.  As such, there are Madonna Minimates based on <i>Desperately Seeking Susan</i>-- and no other licensed figural goods.  The vintage Kenner figure line required likenesses for its toys, despite the fact that none of the Han Solos really looked a damn thing like Harrison Ford.  (For that matter, R2-D2 didn't really either.)

The problem really is how sufficiently different would they need to be to be toys that a jury wouldn't rule against the starving actress' estate and for Lucas?  There's a potential PR issue here too.   At this point this is really the only Cantina character I'm really jonesing to get-- partially because Galoob made a micro Action Fleet figure before the doo-doo hit the fan-- so I'd love to see it, support it in a poll (even over Vlix), etc.   These two would make a lot of fans happy, but at the same time, the very real cost associated with potential likeness issues   Just because it isn't perfect doesn't mean that it isn't close enough to be a problem, and I can't imagine that the suits at Lucas and Hasbro would be willing to risk the ire of the media or anyone's estate just to make one more action figure when they could just as easily crank out another obscure cantina alien which would likely sell just as well, if not better.

While I'm no fan of copyright infringement, a lot of companies have sprang up in Asia making high-quality unlicensed add-ons for LEGO toys, Transformers, etc.  Perhaps it's time someone in the USA do a limited run figure kit that uses none of the trademarks or images but would provide an adequate substitute... after consulting their attorneys, of course.

Really?  Because that's pretty much exactly what you said.

Quote from: Adam_Pawlus on July 28, 2009, 04:54 PM

I don't want to see duds enter the marketplace, particularly when this item aimed at collectors will likely eat up a slot for another, better item aimed at collectors.  

That's funny, I don't see "main line" or "exclusive" anywhere in what I said.  Looks like you saw what you wanted to see.  (No worries, I've done the same.)

Re: your point about "protecting Hasbro," keep this in mind: they really do pay attention to what fans say.  And they get burned.  Fans online in ALL hobbies often exaggerate their interest (or lack thereof, especially on these very boards over the years). A few years ago fans on Transformers boards said they would pay $500 (a hypothetical estimate) on a Beast Wars Neo Unicron toy.  Not only WOULDN'T they pay it, but a lot of these people were young fans who probably *couldn't* pay it.   This sort of thing happens a lot.  I don't doubt that many are interested in this piece, but I doubt there are many who aren't already posting on the forums that would shell out for it.  A 95% positive forum approval can still be a false positive-- who wouldn't say yes if Hasbro said "we're totally going to make the Lars Homestead for $60, who wants it?"

I'm usually the one going on about how much I like something in face of others hating on it, so for me, this is a bit of a strange twist of fate.  Back in the day the JD forums were the one place I could always be sure I could find a long string of posts on how much someone dislikes something which I thought was fantastic... I'm kinda surprised to find that this time around, it seems the only hater is me.

Come on now.  I like Sideshow's product a lot, but it's not friendly to a collector on a budget.  Do you know how much the new Darth Vader VS Obi-Wan Kenobi piece is selling for?  $300.  And truth be told, it's not all that big, especially compared to Sideshow's Premium Format pieces which are similarly priced.  And that VS scene would likely be limited to about 2,000 pieces or so.

Hasbro can crank out a greater number of Funeral Pyre Vaders at a much better price.  And I find their approach of taking this to the collectors to be refreshing.  Hasbro seems much more engaged with the collector base now than they were 6 or 7 years ago.  And taking the collecting community's temperature on this item seems to be more of a grass roots approach to line planning, rather than depending on the tastes of retail buyers that may be more fickle.  They can present buyers with a good level of online feedback before they decide to pick up the set.

That's pretty much exactly my point-- this is an item with a smaller appeal.  Have you seen the shrinking edition sizes on Gentle Giant and Sideshow items, and the massive drop-off in interest which caused them?  There's a good reason to go that way.  Success is relative.  If Hasbro sold only 10k of the item, it might be a flop by their standards while 2.5k for Sideshow would be a tremendous hit.

The power of "you can't have this" is one of the greatest marketing tools a collectible company has-- Gentle Giant, Sideshow, and Hasbro used it to great success early on in all their lines.

And look at it this way-- I seem to be one of maybe four people poo-pooing this item on the boards, certainly the most verbose.   I've heard a number of people in person dislike it before I said anything either way, so if the fan interest really truly is as high as may be believed, my complaining about it makes me look wronger than usual and everyone's comments will shine a light on what a great seller it is, right?  This is Hasbro and Lucasfilm we're dealing with.  They don't do grass roots movements, they go forth and [attempt to] profit.

I'm one of the Padme lovers that Jesse hates. 

[SNIP]... Just like the funeral Padme, she doesn't need any articulation in my opinion, she laid there with her arms cross on the hover-hearse.

I'd be interested in that, even if it'd be a stranger item.  At least she'd have a unique outfit and not be an existing figure.

[SNIP]
You want Vlix I'm pretty sure, in some capacity.  I personally think the Droids cartoon is retarded, and beyond Boba Fett, I'm not really interested in much from it.

Vlix is my Waterloo.  I know it's a lost cause, there's no reason to do one up except for the old-timey Kenner collectors who really dig the gangsters of the early Empire and unproduced toys-- like Gargan was.   It's like some people want Ackmeena, or Tikkes, or whatever.   It's not just *a* figure that I'd like to see, it's *the* figure I'd like to see.  I'm not going to argue it's a huge hit, it's got limited appeal and would probably have to be part of a multi-pack with a much more appealing product to work.   Once you get past the fact he's not from a movie, I'd say the appeal is similar to that of Willrow Hood, a key difference being that Vlix is something of a legendary toy while Hood is something of a shining piece of fan lore.  And both are equally obscure, but depending on who you ask and when, either could be more recognizable.  They're doing ICMG for us-- I think specifically for JediDefender, really-- and that's no small victory, particularly when many of the petitions over the years didn't even use the character name in the graphics.

And I agree, I'd go bonkers for a good Freeze Han too-- I never get why every Carbonite Han Solo is based on the melting scene and not the freezing process.  I'd totally support that... and I'm right there with you on a bigger, better Carbonite playset.  I like the POTJ one, but yeah, a big one would be something else wouldn't it?

Really, the dissenting view?   I seem to be the only person NOT on board with this one here.   That's why I'm so shocked and can't seemingly shut the heck up.

I agree Nick, the Fan's Choice poll is a great way to say what we want, but even then, there are so many options that the top winner may not exactly be a huge number these days.  It's not like 1997 when we all scream "WE WANT A SLAVE LEIA!" and that pretty much represented the view of 100,000+ potential customers.

Well ****, then don't buy one. 

In the mean time don't sit around and talk about how Hasbro shouldn't make something that other people do want made.  You lose nothing if they do make it, and a lot of us are happy.

First, he asked why I didn't like it.  Would you rather I have just said "I don't like it so there?"  I HATE that.  I also don't get why everybody likes this unless it's out of spite at the thought that they can't have it.

I don't want to see duds enter the marketplace, particularly when this item aimed at collectors will likely eat up a slot for another, better item aimed at collectors.  Seeing that other exclusive items include a new AT-ST and a stunning Dewback, this is the most boring thing from the show.  There's a reason they're not saying they're making it, and if it had support in the marketplace, I assure you it would have been announced and dated.  Has Hasbro ever shown something at a show with that kind of a note on it before? Something ain't right here.

Nobody wants you to be "glad they made it," if you are saying that it's totally a must-buy at $30-- or more, more likely-- that's great to hear.  It's not going to be $15, it's not going to be $20.  And it's certainly not as cool as 1/3 of a Turbo Tank or AT-TE, and I say this as someone biased toward the original trilogy, specifically ROTJ being my favorite toy movie (ewoks, bikes, starfighters, character designs, etc.-- it's the best.)

If it makes you feel any better/worse, I have a similar opinion about the McQuarrie box sets-- I don't expect them to be a huge success because of the price and the fact that they're no longer existing in a marketplace where they have a distinct look that makes them look like a "chase" product.  And I LOVE the McQuarrie figures.  It's not about sentiment here.

AP - I'm curious to know why you disliked the set.  I thought it looked pretty neat for what it was and yes I'd pay $30 for this.

After finding my first release in the modern line for 14 years this week (8/1/1995 Hantrooper Froot Loops box!), the last thing I want is premium priced figures.  Particularly if they're things that I may already have.   This is just another "Disturbance in the Force," which, IIRC, struggled to sell through and now goes for less than issue price on eBay.   ($15-$20 for Darth Vader I Have plus Display Stand I Don't is a dull product.)

If we didn't have over 1,000 different modern-era figures, or if this happened to be the "2,000th Figure Gift Set," or something that might make it special-- as someone opined, even as a Celebration exclusive-- sure, whatever, this might not be terrible.  But as a standard release without significant fanfare or some event to *make* it special, it's just another very expensive exclusive.   Between now and the end of 2009, we're looking at over $640 of Hasbro 3 3/4-inch exclusives.   Compared to that new AT-ST, Dewback, TIE Interceptor, and everything else, this simply does not compare unless Hasbro goes out of their way to make it special by tying it in to an event (Celebration V), an anniversary (ROTJ's 30th is 2013), a milestone (are we at 1,750 yet?), or *something.*

I have spare Darth Vaders from countless gift sets I bought to get *other* figures, and a box of matches.   I can totally make this scene happen in real-time without shelling out $30.  (If it had a unique Ewok or Rebel Pilot, I'd get excited.  But it don't.  So I'm not.)

Keep in mind I open and futz with my figures-- I am not won over by unique dioramas in the packaging if the figures aren't exciting or present a unique change.  If I were to write a FOTD column about either, at least from what I saw at the show, it would be "this is the same release as X, except now it has a torch" for Luke or "This is the Darth Vader figure from this other release" for Vader.  A pile of wood doesn't make for an interesting accessory if the price is too high.  I'm not saying Hasbro won't sell a few thousand units to some very eager fans-- because of how I treat the hobby, I'd take one to make certain that it is indeed the same thing when it comes time to write about it-- but unless they market this right, I don't expect that you're going to see a lot of traction with the typical fan, the person who *doesn't* post on forums.

Wow, that was long.

Conversely, I don't understand what's so great about it and why everybody all of a sudden loves it.  Unless you don't have a lot of Lukes or Vaders yet, in which case I can get where you're coming from.

If this were announced as a $25 Target exclusive or $30-$35 ShopStarWars.com item, I assume I'd be seeing total silence from those who like it or the opposite reaction, with a similar amount of posts hating on it.  Over the years-- and I have been keeping track-- every time Hasbro announces a product and a "we might not make this" comment gets out, people start freaking out about this marvelous item they will never be able to have, even if it isn't necessarily all that great.  I myself had the same reaction when I first found out about all the unproduced Kenner toys from 1977-1986 in Star Wars: From Concept to Screen to Collectible and other books, specifically all those Ewoks and Droids cartoon figures plus, yes, the original Gargan action figure.  And again when those Kay-Bee exclusive 00M-9 and Obi-Wan Kenobi figures got the axe.

I picked up all five sets for a complete dark trooper. It is true. These puppies are $17 EACH! That's terrible. We'll I guess I will have to pretend they are $7.72 each. Four crappy repack figures and six semi-new figures.

I'm afraid to open these things to find out of the Dark Trooper is actuated.

Basically SA-- wrists, ankles, hips, knees, the works.  It's just as good as any post-ROTS Clone Trooper, easily, plus the shoulder pads can move and the backpack is removable.   If this was a $15 exclusive figure by itself, in this era of $8 basic figures, you *might* be pleasantly surprised.