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Multimedia => Star Wars Universe => Topic started by: Diddly on January 12, 2014, 05:53 PM

Title: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Diddly on January 12, 2014, 05:53 PM
So according to this article (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/01/op-ed-disney-takes-a-chainsaw-to-the-star-wars-expanded-universe/), Disney is going to spend the next several weeks and months trimming the fat off the EU, so to speak, by reorganizing what is and is not canon.

I think this is a good idea for the most part. I'm only familiar with a few items from the EU but a lot of it was pretty dumb from what I've read on Wookieepedia (Clone Emperor, Ken Palpatine, Yuzzhan Vong, etc). On the other hand if they decide to axe stuff like Thrawn, Shadows of the Empire, Rogue Squadron and KOTOR I'll be a little bummed since those were pretty good EU projects and seem to be enjoyed by pretty much all Star Wars fans.

Any specific EU you want Disney to axe or keep around?
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on January 12, 2014, 06:10 PM
I agree for the most part that it's a good idea.  The EU is mostly authorized fanfiction in the end and whether or not you enjoy or hate it... I've read some and have always felt that while it included beloved characters, it was never true SW to me.  Anyway, to the point, I think if a lot of it is deemed non-canon, then it liberates the writers of the movies to not have to adhere to another writer's history.

I've not read many EU novels.  I liked the Thrawn Trilogy, but others like the Courtship of Leia or Leia's part with Xizor in Shadows were appalling and I felt detracted from her strong personality.  I liked Dark Empire, but didn't like the Clone Emperor at all.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Nicklab on January 12, 2014, 09:13 PM
The overall story direction of the post-ROTJ EU was almost non-existant.  It lacked the sense of singular vision that steered both the PT and the OT.  You had to deal with some crazy premises, ridiculous names and the like.  George Lucas reportedly signed off on a lot of this stuff, but I have to wonder just how closely he was involved in the story direction of these scores of novels and comics that have been released over the years.  For me, almost ALL of the post-ROTJ EU has been difficult to accept.  Some of the pre-PT, Clone Wars and dark times stories work for me, but it's somewhat limited.

I think that this decision will ultimately serve the movies far better.  Why?  Because JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan aren't going to be painted into a corner by all of this burdensome EU minutiae.  And I think they're going to be better able to serve up a great Star Wars story because they're going to have more freedom.  And to me?  I think that JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan are far more capable writers when it comes to interpreting George Lucas's vision than any EU novelist or comic writer.  Even Timothy Zahn.

Even George Lucas wound up being boxed in by his own work.  The prequels were tough for him from a writing standpoint because he had to fulfill all of these story elements that were established in the OT.  Think about the constraints he had to work within just based on how he had Vader speak in the OT.  Vader's dialogue was very tight and focused in the OT.  Almost robotic.  How do you humanize that voice and character in Vader's origin story while staying true to the OT movies?  That alone was very difficult. 

And that makes me much more understanding of Disney's decision to establish this Star Wars story group within the newly re-organized Lucasfilm.  If they need to cut bait with a majority of the post-ROTJ expanded universe stories and literature?  Then do it.  Because the movies have to be the true canon.  Otherwise you devalue the Star Wars film legacy.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on January 13, 2014, 12:01 AM
I apologize in advance to anyone I annoy, but this is such a sore spot for me. Rambling rant begins:

Not sure how Disney saying anything EU isn't canon means anything to me. I agree it will help writing the upcoming movies because they will have much more freedom, but otherwise who cares? Congrats to Disney for buying SW and getting to say what "did and didn't happen now" but the books/comics, etc. were written and I don't believe will evaporate before my eyes. So I still have them and enjoy them. I think people who don't like the EU take it way too seriously. If you don't like it, ignore it. I like the SW world continuing. I love this universe and like I get more. Of course it doesn't all fit. Numerous people have come up with it.

Sorry to break this to the EU haters, but Disney saying the EU didn't happen changes nothing. It did happen. I have the novels in my living room. I don't have any problem if you just like the six movies and that's it and want nothing to do with the other stuff, but I don't buy for a second it ruins the legacy of the OT. People understand those were brilliant films and always will be. You can still love the movies and get all the enjoyment from them you want with the novels existing. They are not hurting you experience.

Sorry too keep repeating myself, and know I will take a beating for this, but I can't wrap my head around the "celebrating" that Disney is going to cut certain EU from canon. It's a fake universe in which you can pick and choose what you like. Without the "new" stuff I don't think all these lines survive like they have until now.

For Disney's sake I totally understand. They need a basic history to go from for the next many years and trimming it down totally makes sense. But because what you read on Wookieepedia was dumb to you doesn't change that in the end these things were written with Lucasfilm's consent and did happen in the Star Wars universe and always will be a part of it.

Ok. I may have over-reacted to this, but it still rubs me the wrong way when people bad mouth something I love. If you think it's dumb and has crazy, appalling story lines then you've saved yourself a lot of time reading. I have enjoyed most every minute of it. Even the stuff I haven't liked doesn't ruin SW for me in any way.

Rambling rant over. Now I should just not read in this thread again so I don't make an ass of myself again. The End.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on January 13, 2014, 02:07 AM
I don't think you sounded bad at all Nick, and really maybe I'm not reading this right but I don't really see them deciding as much what is canon or not, but rather maybe trimming out things they want to paint over, to a degree...  I have a feeling it'll mean some things do die, canon-wise, because they want to make a movie of it...

If you're doing Han's background, you may want to obviously have the freedom to rewrite some stuff, borrow from some of what exists, etc. 

None of the EU was ever holier than the films though...  it's always pretty much been Films, then the rest of it just part of the official "continuity".  Canon really only applied to the films then anyhow...  Lucas himself balked at Fett surviving the Sarlacc...  Now maybe they want to bring him back in a new fashion?  That's fine and good, and as with past EU, I'm sure people can still appreciate what was written and crowbar it in somehow.  That's always been the way it seemed to be.

Look at The Clone Wars...  People have managed to make the 2D and 3D toons mesh more or less, despite there being no intent for that.  Then comics and things, again these weren't really thought of much during the 3D toon's production, but people can crowbar them into the timelines...

I think a lot of this is just because they want to make movies and not be hamstrung.  It won't affect me thinking that X story doesn't exist now at all because it's covered in a new film differently...  Maybe it just fits a different way.

Perhaps elements of story X won't work because of the new movies, but other elements will, and if some of it does jive with the movies, or can fit in somewhere, I'm ok with that.

I think they'll try to keep what they can.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: JediJman on January 13, 2014, 02:21 AM
As probably one of the few big EU supporters here, I'm with Nick.  I've read most of the EU novels and comics from the Old Republic stuff through New Jedi Order all the way out the Legacy series set 100 years post ANH.  While some of the storylines are crap, most are really good tales set in the universe we all know and love.  I loved the NJO series with the solo kids and some of the new jedi characters coming out of those books.  Legacy and Invasion are also great titles worth a read.

I get Disney wanting to reign in some of this because there is so much out there, but plucking certain storylines to say this happened and that didn't really annoys me.  Probably too Star Trekish to go the alternate reality route, but I'd almost rather that than them just saying certain things never happened.  I don't know why they have to say anything at all.  The Avengers-based storylines differed from previous origins and material and I don't recall Disney coming out with a list of canon for superheroes.  Imagine you've written a few chapters of Star Wars lore through novels or comics only to have Disney swoop in and tell you your storyline no longer exists.  Nice.

I totally get that they want to make it their own, but why not go the Superman Returns route?  Just say, this story starts at this point in the SW universe and then do whatever you want from there.  If it differs from EU material down the road, then so be it.  But better to ignore it than erase it in my opinion. 

Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Pete_Fett on January 13, 2014, 08:31 AM
I have always enjoyed the EU stories I have read, because up until now, they have offered me the ONLY way to experience the further adventures of the OT heroes I grew up with.

That being said, I can totally understand why they need to do this.

Maybe I'm being too forgiving, but you can't blame them if they throw out all of the NJO stuff. Chewbacca's death, what children the Solo and Skywalker families have, the eventual death of one of the Solo kids, the turn to the dark side of another, the death of Luke's wife, etc....

Those novels start 21 years post ROTJ. If they wanted the ST to be set 20-30 years after ROTJ, you either have to film those novels and embrace that storyline or you have to throw it out. There is no middle ground.

There will be some novels that are included. I would be very surprised if the Zahn Trilogy isn't. Those books were created at a time when there wasn't an EU and have the distinction of having their story, plot, and author scrutinized by George Lucas. (Or so was said at the time) However, the second you say that Luke married someone other than Mara Jade OR that Leia and Han didn't have twin children named Jaina and Jacen, well, guess what that means. And if that is the case, then "oh well".

When it comes to the Star Wars Universe, you really can't make the same analogy to the Marvel/Avengers stuff. The comics themselves all exist in multiple universes, the movies are in their own universe, and if a movie is being produced by someone other than Disney/Marvel Studios, it too is in it's own separate universe. Sure they could take all the post-ROTJ books and comics and say "these exist in Star Wars Galaxy 154825173855271" (sorry, just poking fun at the Marvel Universe numbers) - but why bother?

Going back to the Zahn Trilogy. If it had been the only EU material to come out, then maybe including it would be fine. But what about the Dark a Empire comic books? They have shoe-horned the two of them together, but the reality is that the two of them are supposed to be happening at the same time, and even back in the early 90s many fans who read both were like "huh?" - both have their own merits, but in the end, almost negate each other because conflicts in the two stories.

I think fans of the Star Wars EU need to embrace the change that the a Star Trek EU fans had to face years ago, and that is that if your book/comic/whatever does not fit with a story the television or movie makers want to produce then guess which piece of media loses and becomes a "what if" story. I'll give you a hint, it certainly isn't the one that cost millions of dollars to produce.  ;)
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on January 13, 2014, 09:30 AM
I think fans of the Star Wars EU need to embrace the change that the a Star Trek EU fans had to face years ago, and that is that if your book/comic/whatever does not fit with a story the television or movie makers want to produce then guess which piece of media loses and becomes a "what if" story. I'll give you a hint, it certainly isn't the one that cost millions of dollars to produce.  ;)

I have no problem with this, but it still doesn't mean Disney has to "change" or "cancel" things out. They can do their thing and the stories can not match up, but don't tell me it's not canon because "you" say so. Just acknowledge anything post Thrawn isn't necessarily going to fit into Disney's story. It would be impossible to do it otherwise, but Walt's frozen head just coming in and wiping it out, at least in Disney's mind, is a slap in the face.

The EU lovers and haters both need to accept the stories haven't been congruent and never will.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: McMetal on January 13, 2014, 09:52 AM
I think it is a potentially slippery slope when someone starts arbitrarily deciding what IS and ISN'T considered "canon" anymore. There need to be clear lines of demarcation, IMHO. What seems non-contradictory today may not be that way a few years from now. It's an unwieldy burden to manage with all the different media.

You have to start setting boundaries someplace. But even then it's hard. Even if you recognize ONLY the six films, you have to figure out how to reconcile revisionist crap like Geedo shooting first, etc.

I think the whole thing has gotten way out of hand personally, and I welcome the coming cull. That's not to say people still can't enjoy what is already out there floating around, it's just a way for them to open up the narrative for the next batch of films.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Scott on January 13, 2014, 10:27 AM
I wouldn't be quick to blame Disney on this.  First of all Pablo Hildago and Leeland Chee are both leading this effort.  They are also the same two guys who for years have supposed to be handling the EU and the Holocron.  I agree with you Nick that they really have no choice and I think the writing is more or less already on the wall concerning that whatever is going to happen in EpVII will be vastly different than the existing EU.  I guess shame on Lucas and Lucasfilm for making lots of money on all of EU over the years only to give everyone the middle finger and say HA HA, it didn't really happen that way.

(http://www.gordon-guide.de/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/nelson-haha.jpg)
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Muftak on January 13, 2014, 10:56 AM
So it goes. I loved the Thrawn stuff and jumped right in when the post ROTJ stuff started. Then just as quickly I was appalled by the Jedi Academy storyline and realized I would have to pick and choose what stories I followed.

But none of this stuff has ever matched up...going back to Splinter of the Mind's Eye which predates everything except Ep IV. I spent 15 years believing Owen was ObiWan's brother (Because I read it in the ROTJ novelization in 83) before it became evident that the prequels were negating that...and that stuff just kept happening all through the PT. I still wonder why Leia remembers her real mother.

So a purge is coming. As has been said, it's not gonna change my affection for the Thrawn books.  I guess I can kiss the chances of a retcon "Vader meets the Noghri" novel goodbye. But maybe it will open the door for a spinoff Thrawn movie to modify the story to fit in with the details of the sequel trilogy. I could get excited for that sort of project (especially in animated form.)
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jeff on January 13, 2014, 11:33 AM
Like other comic book fans here have said, to me this is no different than "Peter Parker never married Mary Jane!!!"  Or "Superman never married Lois Lane!!!"  There comes a point when the stories have to be rebooted and continuity has to be cleaned up and I guess Star Wars is finally there (just like comics, Star Trek, Walking Dead and countless other things before).  That;'s what happens when companies need to make $$$ at the end of the day.

I totally get the anger from people who love the existing EU.  I honestly think you sort of have to go through the five stages of grief.  I've seen it (and felt it myself) with various Marvel/DC reboots over the years.  If you love something, it hurts when someone else (Disney) tells you it's not worth keeping anymore.  The best part is that while Disney can tell you it didn't happen, you will always have the book and you are always free to believe what you want.

Like Pete said in his post...
take all the post-ROTJ books and comics and say "these exist in Star Wars Galaxy 154825173855271" (sorry, just poking fun at the Marvel Universe numbers)

DC Comics fans like me will consider the Lucas-LFL Era as "Pre-Crisis" EU and the Disney-LFL Era "Post-Crisis" EU (to equal-opportunity poke fun at the DC Universe ;)).

Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Nicklab on January 13, 2014, 01:56 PM
I don't think this is going to mean that Disney/Lucasfilm is going to start pulling books, comics and graphic novels off of book store shelves.  That would be taking things to preposterous levels.  Is it possible that the aforementioned material will go out of print?  Most likely, especially with the expiration of Dark Horse's comic adaptation contract.  As for the novels?  That remains to be seen.  For the time being, all of that material remains, and fans of the post-ROTJ expanded universe can continue to enjoy all of that literature to their heart's content.  I enjoyed some of the Rogue Squadron stories.  And I thought that Crimson Empire was a great story.  Why?  Largely because those stories focused on characters whose stories never got (and would never get) explored in the films.  I felt that the EU was the perfect vehicle for them.

But the stories that included the main characters, like Luke, Leia, Han Solo et al?  I found that the way those characters were written in the EU was too divergent (for my tastes) from the way those characters were developed in the films.  Say what you will about the acting and dialogue of all of the movies, but they did manage to establish some interesting characters.  The EU writers did not seem as though they captured the essence of the characters for me.

I think it's those stories that involve Luke, Leia & Han Solo that the Lucasfilm story group, with guys like Pablo Hidalgo and Leland Chee, are likely to take to editing.  Simply because those storylines have the potential to hamstring the writing process for the new trilogy as well as the standalone films.  And those guys are not some Disney new hires.  They've been with Lucasfilm for a LONG time.  They know the material.  Leleand Chee was the guy behind LFL's in-house Holocron, which was the OFFICIAL and unpublished source of Star Wars continuity.  And Pablo Hidalgo was one of the driving forces behind the Star Wars official site, which was itself once a great source of Star Wars lore in their Databank.  I think they along with the other members of the Star Wars story group are going to be very judicious in their decision making.  But they may also have to be very ruthless in the process.  I don't think that every EU fan is going to be ecstatic about this process.  But I think fans of the film universe will be the beneficiaries of some very thoughtful changes in the direction of the Star Wars universe, post-ROTJ.

I think that comparisons to both Marvel and DC comics are apt.  Marvel has obliterated their own universe before in order to start anew with things like the Ultimates.  And the Marvel cinematic universe seems to be something that fans have thus far accepted.  And as Jeff mentioned, the Crisis mini-series did set the stage for divergences in DC's overall continuum.  I suspect that this is the sort of change that we can expect for Star Wars as well.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: JediJman on January 13, 2014, 03:12 PM
Feelings aside, I wonder if this gives us any clues about what's going to happen in these sequels.  The NJO series is set pretty far beyond ROTJ, so a movie set close to ROTJ shouldn't have to worry about what happens in these further out stories unless they are going to radically change something.  For example, if Chewie is slated to die 20 years post your movie, there's not really any need to say he doesn't die until you catch up to that timeline in the movies.  I can see some of the immediate Rogue Squadron stuff or Courtship of Leia being in the way, but those are low impact stories that really don't impact characters much IMO.  Kind of like the Marvel Star Wars comics.  Pretty weird stories that take place between and around the movies, but nothing so significant that it couldn't be kept around.

So, if they are going this route, there's likely some big change coming, right?  There are two possibilities that come to the forefront for me.

#1 - The sequels go pretty far into the future.  Much the way there was a gap between ROTS and ANH, they could jump ahead some 20 years to the next generation of Solos/Skywalkers/Jedi etc.  If they are planning this, it would seem fairly necessary to start carving out chunks of the EU that "didn't happen" because they'll be coming up against that time period in short order.

#2 - Han dies.  There were rumors a while back that Ford would join the case only if Solo gets killed off, likely in some dramatic fashion.  No Han means you've got to wipe out a good 90% of the EU stories following ROTJ.  He's not the star of many of those stories, but he's there, his relationship is there, his kids are there.  Hoping they don't go this route, but the whole Canon conversation makes it seem all the more likely to me.   :(
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on January 13, 2014, 03:32 PM
What Scott said...

It's really LFL and Lucas that should have much of the resentment aimed at them...  They raked in a LOT of cash from 1993 onward...  And Lucas, contrary to the "It's all great and canon!" crowd, didn't give much of a **** about most of the material...  That's one thing that always annoyed me a little about the EU, not that it would've impacted this discussion anyway since I still think Disney would be doing as they pleased here.  But Lucas was really an absentee landlord with this stuff.  He was annoyed someone even had been allowed to name Coruscant before him.  He should've been more involved, and wasn't, and there is some crap...  That's a separate topic to me though.

I have a feeling one of my favorite stories will be muffed up, and that's the Thrawn Trilogy.  I didn't care for NJO myself, or really a lot of EU...  I like some, but not the majority.  But the Thrawn Trilogy lay smack in the middle of this train track, and can hear the horn blowing.  It's one of my favorite stories though.  It always irked me some at LFL that they were always in the EU for the cash grab more than the quality, or that was how I felt about it anyway.  I felt like the NJO was sensationalized rather than intelligent plots...  "We'll off Chewie and get people in reading!" type stuff annoyed me, among other things.

Granted Zahn had a lot more freedom to work at the time too.  Uncharted waters.  And the NJO put out some great ideas and points, but I felt like the bad trumped the good in that series.

Like the collectibles though, I felt like it was just Star Wars being whored out at times so there was SOMETHING for the fans to read and buy.  I honestly feel some of the best EU is in video games rather than books or comics.  Some of the stories seemed to have a deeper and less sensational plot line to them anyway.

I still don't think it's going to be wide swaths cut through the EU though...  And think if elements don't contradict, they're elements that can still be happily accepted and enjoyed.  EU's ALWAYS been crammed and fitted together to make people happy.  I'll probably just continue to enjoy it that way myself.

I always thought the interview with Lucas where he actually laughed at the "Boba Lives" storyline summed it up though.  Dude just wanted money...  He didn't care who wrote it, or what level of quality it was.  He just wanted the $ it generated for his business, and that's fine, but it leads to things like this, but also led to a ton of ****** stuff coming out too...  That always annoyed me a little about how the EU has always been handled.   Of course, what's good or bad is all opinion, but most agree that there's some bad stuff floating around.  That's really a whole other topic though.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on January 13, 2014, 03:44 PM
All good points.

I am in the camp that says "whore it out if it gives me more to enjoy" over a few non-whored out things here and there. A lot of not whored out stuff would have been best of course, but who would have guessed George was only in it for the money.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on January 13, 2014, 07:11 PM
I would've preferred less whoring only because I don't consider the Majority to be quality but elements of almost everything are neat...  But as complete works on their own I like far less than I don't like.  Lucas at this point is the only person who would argue it was special and mattered to him, I think.  It would've been nice had the reigns been tightened slightly but the prequal build-up and height saw just torrents of unchecked stuff.  It was like anyone with any idea was getting a license.

I don't think quality is an issue at all with this Disney change though.  Simply interference with what they want to do from here out.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Pete_Fett on January 13, 2014, 08:10 PM
#2 - Han dies.  There were rumors a while back that Ford would join the case only if Solo gets killed off, likely in some dramatic fashion.  No Han means you've got to wipe out a good 90% of the EU stories following ROTJ.  He's not the star of many of those stories, but he's there, his relationship is there, his kids are there.  Hoping they don't go this route, but the whole Canon conversation makes it seem all the more likely to me.   :(

Personally, I feel that this is most likely one of the big motivators.

If you have stories in the EU set at, near or after the time-frame of the new Sequel Trilogy (or any of the one-off stories) AND you have sold-your-soul contractually to get an actor back for "one last time" - well then guess what? The agreement you made with that actor trumps everything, especially if part of that agreement is that Han dies.

Now I'm not going to say that this is what they're gonna do, but I think if they were SMART, and had already considered a Han Solo one-off movie, they should have contracted Ford to be in BOTH EP7 and the Han Solo movie - that way the Han Solo movie can be legitimized  by having the actor who originated the role playing the character one last time. Much like the concept of Leonard Nimoy playing Old/Trek Timeline #1 Spock in the 2009/2013 J.J. Abrams Trek movies.

But that's just my $0.02
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jeff on April 25, 2014, 02:01 PM
Lucasfilm finally confirms it - the existing post-ROTJ EU is out (http://starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page.html). 

They're not discarding it completely, it'll live on as an "alternate universe" type thing under the Star Wars Legends branding. 
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: JediJman on April 25, 2014, 02:14 PM
Lucasfilm finally confirms it - the existing post-ROTJ EU is out (http://starwars.com/news/the-legendary-star-wars-expanded-universe-turns-a-new-page.html). 

They're not discarding it completely, it'll live on as an "alternate universe" type thing under the Star Wars Legends branding.

I wonder what their position is on the pre TPM EU is?  Are things like Old Republic considered canon?
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on April 25, 2014, 02:20 PM
They're not discarding it completely, it'll live on as an "alternate universe" type thing under the Star Wars Legends branding.

I can live with that Mickey
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jeff on April 25, 2014, 02:30 PM
I wonder what their position is on the pre TPM EU is?  Are things like Old Republic considered canon?

Reading the article, it sounds like old canon is still canon unless something Disney plans/does over-writes it.  Then it becomes a 'Legends' universe story. 

For instance, if they do end up making a 'young Han Solo' movie, I imagine that'd nuke all the existing young Han Solo books (Daley Han Solo Adventures; Crispin Han Solo Trilogy; etc).

I think the article only calls out post-ROTJ because Ep7/8/9 is the only thing they've officially announced so far.  Once other things get announced, more and more of the "pre-Disney" EU will become 'Legends' EU.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on April 25, 2014, 04:28 PM
Interesting that some fans are up in arms about this and claiming Disney raped my childhood.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Darby on April 25, 2014, 04:38 PM
If you're a fan of the books, comics, etc, I can understand some frustrations with this. I don't know if a person can be too upset though; it's hardly the first time it's happened (original Marvel run, the Christmas special) and Lucas has maintained pretty much from the beginning, and with a blow horn during the prequels, that nothing outside of the films is cannon.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on April 25, 2014, 04:41 PM
Interesting that some fans are up in arms about this and claiming Disney raped my childhood.

Not sure what's "interesting" about it. I know you hate EU so you don't care, but some of us do care. So it shouldn't be a surprise. I know we've discussed this before and I won't make a production about it again. I am just glad they are not just pretending the books/games/comics/etc didn't happen by using their "Legends" title.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 25, 2014, 05:20 PM
I've mentioned elsewhere but I'm curious if they'll try to rework and fit in any old eu into new eu?  Like characters or whatnot.  I'm not against any of this as eu was never canon anyway...  I always took a pick and choose motto on it because of that (and it being 50/50 at best to me in terms of quality).

I like them acknowledging little details will carry over...  Makes me wonder if some characters and details may get a reworking to "fit".  Fans have done that for decades already, haha.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: CorranHorn on April 25, 2014, 05:23 PM
I don't see this necessarily being a bad thing. For those of us who like the idea of parallel universes, we can just consider the Post-ROTJ EU to be just that. It can live in harmony alongside what the sequels bring, similar to how the Star Trek reboot have done for TOS.

In terms of stories being ignored, they've already gone through this I believe with the Marvel comics. After the resurgence of Star Wars in media began in the 90s, I believe there were no references to Marvel material up until the Legacy of the Force anthology began. That essentially to me was ignoring what had come before, so it isn't necessarily new ground we're treading here.

At the same time it also makes sense and I'm wondering if they will do the same for the EU between ANH & ROTJ. I've always thought the EU between ANH & ESB was very messy as there's far too many stories and events taking place for the core heroes than could occur in that 3 year period. Between the Marvel comics series, the newspaper strips, the various Dark Horse lines, and novels, a lot seemed to take place in those 3 years and none of it really lined up together. So perhaps we'll get a clean slate there as well or since Disney owns Marvel, the 77-86 comic series will be considered the official story.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Greg on April 25, 2014, 05:32 PM
This move seems to be the best course of action. It gives Disney/LFL a clean slate for the new movies, while not totally ignoring what has come before. It's especially nice that at least some of the old works will be kept around in print as the "Legends" series. That is better treatment than what the 2003 Clone Wars cartoon received back 2008.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on April 25, 2014, 05:36 PM
Interesting that some fans are up in arms about this and claiming Disney raped my childhood.

Not sure what's "interesting" about it. I know you hate EU so you don't care, but some of us do care. So it shouldn't be a surprise. I know we've discussed this before and I won't make a production about it again. I am just glad they are not just pretending the books/games/comics/etc didn't happen by using their "Legends" title.

Nick, using 'hate' is a strong word and putting words in my mouth, which I don't appreciate.  My opinions on EU is that it is non-canon.  I read some, liked some, didn't care for most, so I quite reading it.  It's an opinion and it's different than yours.  It doesn't mean that my feelings on EU should take away from your enjoyment.  That being said...

my point is that there are a lot of EU fans out there basically using "Disney raped my childhood" like some claimed "Lucas raped my childhood 15-20 years ago.  It's interesting the parallel there.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Matt on April 25, 2014, 06:34 PM
Fans of the Exhausted Universe: Your tears are delicious.

(http://i.imgur.com/09UKE1e.gif)
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on April 25, 2014, 07:47 PM
Edit- Never mind Matt.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: McMetal on April 25, 2014, 10:19 PM
Dude, that is an awesome GIF, all things aside. I loved that episode.

I will say the most gratifying thing to come out of this for me is that they finally once and for all officially confirmed that the Clone Wars TV show is canon, and not "EU" as some people occasionally were referring to it.

To me it's an important distinction if for no other reason than the fact that this leaves the door cracked for Hasbro to make more Clone Wars inspired figures like those 2 upcoming Clones and not violate their no-EU figure ban. Hope for guys like Krell yet...a fool's hope maybe, but hope nonetheless.

Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jabba the Slug on April 27, 2014, 03:49 AM
Okay, can someone clarify something for me - is ALL EU considered out?

I took StarWars.com's press release to mean that anything post-ROTJ was out. However, I'm seeing on different sites (especially JTA's reports) and from different interpretations people saying that all EU is dead. So I'm not sure exactly what's going on.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Greg on April 27, 2014, 11:18 AM
Okay, can someone clarify something for me - is ALL EU considered out?

I took StarWars.com's press release to mean that anything post-ROTJ was out. However, I'm seeing on different sites (especially JTA's reports) and from different interpretations people saying that all EU is dead. So I'm not sure exactly what's going on.

I would say that all EU is on the chopping block, but some eras might not be in imminent "danger" of being changed. Obviously post-ROTJ is getting thrown out, but Rebels might also trample over some pre-existing comics, games and novels. KOTOR and Prequel era stuff is probably "safe" for the time being, but only until Disney/LFL turns their attention to those time periods with spinoff movies or TV shows. That's just my thinking on the announcement.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 27, 2014, 12:04 PM
I'd say they'll pick and choose if they'll keep anything going forward (they mention already some small details carrying over into Rebels for instance).  I'd say nothing is "out" yet because there aren't any new stories overwriting them.  Till those, it's all "sky is falling" to wind people up I think.  It's obvious SOME is out or will be come movie time.  Some characters like say the Solo kids, are 99% out I'd guess.  But at the same time who knows?  Nobody outside Disney/LFL knows and the releases own statement was that elements of EU will remain...  Small elements?  Maybe.  Big ones may linger on too.

So to that end I figure once they overwrite it, it's out...  Till then it's in.  And even once it's out, I'm sure parts of any story could still be crowbarred into the new stuff.  Thrawn could still exist as a character just in a different way.  Or Kyle Katarn.  Or Fett escaping the Sarlacc if they don't mention some other fate... 

It's not the great sadness to me, I guess, that others view it as.  Some stuff will inevitably be basically destroyed, but they'll never touch on all aspects of eu in the new films.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on April 27, 2014, 01:17 PM
Checked again this morning and much to my relief, at least at this point, none of the books on my book shelf of well over 100 SW EU books have spontaneously combusted yet.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Greg on April 27, 2014, 01:25 PM
Checked again this morning and much to my relief, at least at this point, none of the books on my book shelf of well over 100 SW EU books have spontaneously combusted yet.

The combustion is schedules to occur on May the 4th.  ;D
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on April 27, 2014, 01:36 PM
Checked again this morning and much to my relief, at least at this point, none of the books on my book shelf of well over 100 SW EU books have spontaneously combusted yet.

The combustion is schedules to occur on May the 4th.  ;D

Good point. Dang it!
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Nicklab on April 27, 2014, 03:30 PM
Checked again this morning and much to my relief, at least at this point, none of the books on my book shelf of well over 100 SW EU books have spontaneously combusted yet.

The combustion is schedules to occur on May the 4th.  ;D

Good point. Dang it!

Time to invest in some fire-proof comic boxes.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: EdSolo on April 28, 2014, 07:15 AM
Okay, can someone clarify something for me - is ALL EU considered out?

I took StarWars.com's press release to mean that anything post-ROTJ was out. However, I'm seeing on different sites (especially JTA's reports) and from different interpretations people saying that all EU is dead. So I'm not sure exactly what's going on.

Since it hasn't been stated yet, yes, the entire EU is now "Legends".  What is cannon now is the existing six films, any new films by Disney (sequels and spin-offs), the Clone Wars cartoon series (including the theatrical release and "Lost Missions" or Season 6 that is now on Netflix, but not the Tartikovsky shorts), the upcoming Rebels cartoons, the Sons of Dathomir comics (coming from Dark Horse comics - these will center on Maul and are adapted from CW scripts) and the just announced novels that will be released from Del Ray.  Going forward, it appears that everything will be cannon that comes out from Disney, including anything that is licensed by Lucasfilm and/or Disney.  So any new Marvel comics, Del Ray books, video games, etc. will all be cannon on the same level as the movies.

Essentially this makes the existing EU stories that may or may not have been true.  In some cases it will just be fictional stories in the Star Wars universe.  In other cases, it could be like the equivalent of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree and telling his parents that he could not tell a lie.  We know he existed, but there really isn't a way to verify the story.

My biggest fear is laziness from Disney or Lucasfilm.  Something along the lines of using Mara Jade as a template for Luke's wife for the sequels, but changing her character to make her fit the way they want.  I would prefer a brand new character rather than a Mara lite.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Diddly on April 29, 2014, 12:11 AM
As I said in my original post, I'm still fine with this, but it is kind of sad to see EU as a whole basically gone. Plus, nothing says we still can't pick and choose which EU material to follow. :P
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 29, 2014, 12:15 AM
Plus, nothing says we still can't pick and choose which EU material to follow. :P

This.

Plus like I said, I haven't seen anything that says ALL EU has been dumped into the abyss.  Like the statement said, Rebels is already picking up on things from the 1980's even...  Sienar Fleet Systems will "exist" as something, etc.

Till me, till a movie dumps on it, it's part of my world if I like it...  After a movie dumps on it, I'll try fudging in what I enjoyed about the old EU that got fudged up.

Yeah I re-read the statement and it's basically that the EU's there till it's overwritten and even then, it's still there but just different.  I'm curious to see what elements will be brought into NEW material.  They said all elements of the EU will be available to people working on new material...  That's kind of telling I think that EU isn't dead like is being claimed...  It isn't.  A storyline or character could get overtaken by the new stuff though.

I liked the line, "Lucasfilm always strived to keep the continuity in order" (paraphrased), when man they didn't strive for dick.  They were constantly crow barring things together, and fitting things after they realized they dumped on a previous character or story plot...  It happened constantly.  They never gave a hoot by my estimation.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Nicklab on April 29, 2014, 09:35 AM
I have to say, I like the Legends solution.  It keeps these established works out there for fans of those comics, games and novels to continue to enjoy.  LFL and Disney aren't purging those stories, but they do appear to be terminating those stories that don't fit within the timeline that they're trying to pursue with new projects like the REBELS animated series and the Sequel Trilogy.

I imagine what we may be about to encounter is which stories are going to continue on, and which are coming to an end.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: EdSolo on April 29, 2014, 11:50 AM
Plus, nothing says we still can't pick and choose which EU material to follow. :P

This.

Plus like I said, I haven't seen anything that says ALL EU has been dumped into the abyss.  Like the statement said, Rebels is already picking up on things from the 1980's even...  Sienar Fleet Systems will "exist" as something, etc.

Till me, till a movie dumps on it, it's part of my world if I like it...  After a movie dumps on it, I'll try fudging in what I enjoyed about the old EU that got fudged up.

Yeah I re-read the statement and it's basically that the EU's there till it's overwritten and even then, it's still there but just different.  I'm curious to see what elements will be brought into NEW material.  They said all elements of the EU will be available to people working on new material...  That's kind of telling I think that EU isn't dead like is being claimed...  It isn't.  A storyline or character could get overtaken by the new stuff though.

I liked the line, "Lucasfilm always strived to keep the continuity in order" (paraphrased), when man they didn't strive for dick.  They were constantly crow barring things together, and fitting things after they realized they dumped on a previous character or story plot...  It happened constantly.  They never gave a hoot by my estimation.

I believe everyone is missing the point here.  The announcement has said there is no more EU.  There is canon and there is Legends.  Essentially everything we have seen as the EU is now Legends.  Canon now consists of the films, CW TV series, Rebels TV series, the upcoming Darth Maul comic and everything else coming forward, essentially starting in 2015.  Everything else is dead and gone.  It isn't a situation of Mara Jade, Jacen, Jaina and Anakin Solo still exist until Episode VII says so.  It is a situation of that they no longer exist unless a new movie, novel, comic, etc. says they exist.  Even then, the most likely won't exist in the form we have previously seen them.

What was the EU is now called Legends...essentially if the Star Wars universe was real, these would be works of fiction that Han, Luke and Leia would read.  Disney may pull something from these sources, like with Seinar, but that does not make ever mention of Seiner in the old EU canon.

As for keeping everything in continuity, I think they did a lot better job than you give them credit for.  For the most part, Lucas is the one who threw the biggest monkey wrenches into continuity.  The Clone War series is the largest example.  To be fair, Lucas always said he reserved the right to do so.  Take a look a Nathan P. Butler's Star Wars Timeline Gold to see just how much of a timeline the old EU covers.  It is pretty staggering.  He has hundreds upon hundreds of pages of timeline info.

This announcement really didn't surprise me.  Disney paid a lot of money for Star Wars.  I would think that movies may be the route for the biggest return on their investment.  It doesn't make sense to chain themselves to an existing EU.  People have been saying for years that Zahn's Thrawn trilogy would make great movies.  While they are great novels, I don't think there is that much action overall for a trilogy of movies.  Most of the time, a novel ends up being better that the movie that adapts it.  With rumors of a Han Solo movie or a Boba Fett movie, it makes sense to dump any previous material.  A fresh start like this makes the most sense.  It also removes any ambiguity going forward.  If Disney allows something to be created, whether it be a movie, novel, comic, tv show or game, what happens is canon in the Star Wars universe.  I much prefer that over the levels of canon that were required under the old EU.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: McMetal on April 29, 2014, 12:46 PM
Was the Tartakovsky series specifically mentioned as being out? I assumed that would be included in the "canon" media along with the 3D animated series.

Thinking back, there is really nothing in there to contradict anything else that is likely to be covered. Even Durge can easily be dovetailed into the existing continuity.

Some of that stuff, particularly the lead-in to ROTS, is fairly noteworthy, it seems to me.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: EdSolo on April 29, 2014, 02:51 PM
Was the Tartakovsky series specifically mentioned as being out? I assumed that would be included in the "canon" media along with the 3D animated series.

Thinking back, there is really nothing in there to contradict anything else that is likely to be covered. Even Durge can easily be dovetailed into the existing continuity.

Some of that stuff, particularly the lead-in to ROTS, is fairly noteworthy, it seems to me.

Tartakovsky series is out by virtue of it not being mentioned as being in.  The problem with the Clone Wars series as a whole in terms of continuity is that it stepped on much of what was already out there in terms of novels, comics and the Tartakovsky series.  Lucasfilm, pre Disney buy-out, was waiting for the end of the Clone Wars series to try to fit everything together.  I believe a major problem was when Anakin was knighted.  The Tartakovsky series makes it look like it was at least a year or more into the Clone Wars.  The new series seems to have it occur not too long after Geonosis.

The other major item from Tartakovsky would be Bariss Offee.  Season 5 of the Clone Wars had made her seem to be a contemporary of Ashoka.  Tartakovsky and other EU sources made her to be a contemporary of Anakin.

For the most part, it could be relatively easy to integrate since I believe it was only two hours of material.  I especially enjoyed the portrayal of Greivous, especially the reason for his cough.  However, ROTS Greivous was a pale comparison to what we saw in the Tartakovsky series.  Additionally, he has the cough throughout the Clone Wars series which is in-line with his ROTS appearance.  If the Clone Wars series was allowed to continue, I think we may have seen an episode that would have essentially retread the Palpatine abduction, which was also covered different in the Labyrinth of Evil novel.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Greg on April 29, 2014, 03:38 PM
Also as a "real world" explanation they took the Tartakovsky series out of production at some point prior to TCW 2008 hitting the air. That could have been to avoid confusion or a disowning or a mix of both.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 29, 2014, 04:44 PM
Quote
I believe everyone is missing the point here.  The announcement has said there is no more EU.  There is canon and there is Legends.  Essentially everything we have seen as the EU is now Legends.  Canon now consists of the films, CW TV series, Rebels TV series, the upcoming Darth Maul comic and everything else coming forward, essentially starting in 2015.  Everything else is dead and gone.

Actually, I don't think you're totally seeing the point Ed, but I'm actually not even disagreeing with some of what you're saying totally, but feel you're reading way too much into this statement on the matter. 

EU was NEVER canon, and that's my point.  There was NEVER a hierarchy to it...  It was always what Lucas said, and the rest was bunk if he decided.  LFL was pretty clear on this, as was Lucas himself. 

LFL officially called the EU "The Official Continuity" (Been over this a billion times, so if anyone disagrees it's on you to google this yourself...  It's everywhere), which encompassed anything outside the films.  They tried to crowbar it all together unless it contradicted the established canon of the time...  IE: the films and what Lucas was saying "This is, and this isn't" himself.

You think they did a good job, I think they were cash grabbing with a ton of EU and were stepping all over each other.  Sometimes little stuff, sometimes bigger stuff.  I found half of the EU pretty ****** though, personally...  It's neither here nor there though, as EU is what it always was, and appears to still be the same now.

You can call it "Legends", "Old Stories That May Not Be True", "Lucas Era EU", whatever... But that still means it's just EU as EU always was...  It's there, but as the official statement said, they'll draw elements from it, and all the future stuff going forward CAN draw from it possibly (I assume they'll have a bit more of a tight control on it than LFL did however), and this stuff can all be overwritten at any time because they (Disney) don't want painted into a corner creatively because that's what seemingly half of existing EU would do to them.  Makes sense, and tough to argue with.  Disney paid billions, and doesn't want hamstrung by stories they don't want to make into movies, etc.  They want to make their OWN money.

There is nothing in that press release though saying, "______ is 'out' now" or anything like that...  It's obvious though much will be overwritten going forward.  But not yet.  Looking at where they're starting Episode VII timeline wise, for example, The Truce At Bakura may be a story that totally fits, and as such, it's still a story I think fans of it (all 3) could say "Well that fits so I still consider it part of the universe, blah blah blah".  Personally I think it's a bad story, so I never considered it part of my Star Wars world, but whatever.

Canon has expanded now, going forward, which to me is the far larger headline in that story...  Canon was never anything but the films, now it's much, much more.  That's the thing I'd say I am not a fan of seeing happen.  Who wants ****** stories shoveled down their throat?  There has been so much BAD Star Wars written since the early 90's that it was appreciated that EU could basically be ignored by any fan as part of "their Star Wars" experience...  as if rules about discussing a fictional universe are something normal people would want to deal with anyway.  ::)

I think the outbursts that "EU is purged!  EU is dead!", and so on, are really exaggerated though.  It should be "Canon is Expanding and May Overwrite Your Favorite EU Story".  EU being called Legends doesn't really change it at all from what it already was though... Something that wasn't canon, just part of what LFL called the "Official Continuity" (Leeland Chee's words)...  It's still something that if it fits great for the people who liked it I suppose.  And if not, it's kaput (and that's a now evolving and growing thing).  It'll be interesting to see what elements they carry over, what they drop. 

Obviously a lot is on the way out though.  NJO looks pretty much on the chopping block entirely right now.

Like the press release said though, elements of the EU will be available to anyone developing new stuff, so who knows what good things people liked could turn up.  I like that Filoni has an affinity for the old RPG material because I do too, and he's putting a bit of that into Rebels (already).  It's now a new, ever-changing world.  Star Wars hasn't been that way for a while, so it's at least interesting if nothing else.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 29, 2014, 04:50 PM
BTW on the Tartakovsky thing, it was made to fit to the events of ROTS...  I don't see how the 2D cartoon doesn't fit within the storyline, so for my money it's something I enjoyed so I still consider it a major part of Star Wars.  I don't think the show conflicting with the release of the 3D one had any issue though. 

I thought the Tartakovsky cartoon ended simply because it was done.  They closed with the "end" of the Clone Wars, more or less right into ROTS.  I could be wrong as I don't recall when it even came out though.  I thought 3D came out a good while after 2D was out.  There's 3 years for the Clone Wars to take place though, and plenty of time for those short toons to squeeze into that timeline easily, to me. 
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Greg on April 29, 2014, 05:10 PM
BTW on the Tartakovsky thing, it was made to fit to the events of ROTS...  I don't see how the 2D cartoon doesn't fit within the storyline, so for my money it's something I enjoyed so I still consider it a major part of Star Wars.  I don't think the show conflicting with the release of the 3D one had any issue though. 

I thought the Tartakovsky cartoon ended simply because it was done.  They closed with the "end" of the Clone Wars, more or less right into ROTS.  I could be wrong as I don't recall when it even came out though.  I thought 3D came out a good while after 2D was out.  There's 3 years for the Clone Wars to take place though, and plenty of time for those short toons to squeeze into that timeline easily, to me.

Based only on what we ended up with from the 6 seasons of The Clone Wars, I think in terms of in-universe timelines and such it could be made to work with the micro series. The only big issues that stand out to me at the moment are Grievous' cough, which he has throughout the TCW series yet it is caused in the final episode of the micro series, and possibly the two Battles of Mon Calamari. We really needed to see what TCW would have done for the Battle of Coruscant/pre-ROTS to know for sure if it would have contradicted the micro series.

Neither cartoon series really jived with the other EU (comics and novels), so in that regard it might be nice if The Clone Wars is the only super-duper official canon for that time period. No worrying about Alpha, Durge, Ventress' origins, Labyrinth of Evil/micro series Battle of Coruscant, Mandalorians, 2 Kamino or Mon Calamari battles, or Barriss Offee issues.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 29, 2014, 05:15 PM
The two Mon Cal battles, I think those are fine...  One early, one late (judging by the armor changes)...  To me those still fit well enough.

I never read the comics much for TCW era really.  I assume elements fit, and others don't.  That's fine.

Frankly I liked Grievous' cough origins in Tartakovsky's toon far better than what Lucas came up with, haha.  I say he just has allergies in the 3-year toon and is always coughing and sneezing.  Poor guy.  He's allergic to f'n up all the time I guess.

Then he finally becomes cool and badass, and someone crushes his chest so his chronic cough is back.  Poor guy can't win.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on April 29, 2014, 07:05 PM
It's too bad those 'soda-pop/school lunch episodes of The Clone Wars are considered canon.  :P

Also, a lot of people say the Thrawn Trilogy would be cool if made into movies.  I was thinking of this (it's been a while since I've read it so I could be mistaken) and there's a plotline that would be a problem... when Han finds that Stormtroopers are clones (or clones are still being made).  Why would this be a shock since you'd think everyone in the Republic/Empire would have known that since the clone wars happened?
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 29, 2014, 08:41 PM
Eh, who cares?  I just got done expressing my opinion that half of what Lucas thought was a good idea was ****, so why worry right?  Just ignore the school lunch episodes, I say.  Piss on the whole "canon" thing all together.

In the HTTE thing, and it's been a while so I may be long, but Clones were long out of circulation if I recall, and Thrawn & Co. restarted Cloning in some emergency Clone facilities Poopa Pappa Palpatine kept handy to crank out some troops in an emergency. 

They seemed kind of retarded though, and not like Jango Clones (of course, that was all pre-Jango era anyway so obviously they weren't based on that), and not even something people could sense with the force.  I picture these creepy things without hair or orifices.  Just creepy body snatchers type stuff.  :-\

I loved HTTE...  Loved how Thrawn got a build-up in TIE Fighter then, and SW Insider did a bitching who's who of all the Grand Admirals...  Always wondered about Grand Moffs or Generals then, and how many there were.  Cool stuff.

C'Boath was the only thing I really didn't like about HTTE...  I thought that was kind of dumb.  I was kind of glad we never got his figure, but the cancellation of that Noghri/Wookiee set was blasphemy to me, and now since Hasbro's been diverted from doing EU stuff that just eats it bigtime. :(

However...  Makes one wonder if Hasbro won't be making figures based on all this new material coming out?  Rebels aside since it's obviously coming, but comics, games, novels upcoming?  I'm interested.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: I Am Sith on April 29, 2014, 08:42 PM
They were shocked because Thrawn was able to make clones in a matter of months versus taking years.  It had to do with the use of the ysalamiri and the fact that they could block the force.  I read this series to my 9 year old last year and he loved it.  When they announced EP7-9 were being made, the first thing he asked was if they were making the Thrawn series...

Considering that Disney are saying they need to purge parts to help the creativity of the writers for the movies, I take that to mean that they could purge parts of the timeline and not necessarily all of the characters.  I think it would be cool if they could still have Thrawn as a character.  But, instead of Han, Luke and Leia being the 'action' heroes that fight against Thrawn, they could be the strategists like Bel Iblis and Mon Montha and their offspring or Jedi apprentices could be the ones actually fighting and doing all the action sequences.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jeff on April 29, 2014, 09:05 PM
EU was NEVER canon, and that's my point.  There was NEVER a hierarchy to it...  It was always what Lucas said, and the rest was bunk if he decided.  LFL was pretty clear on this, as was Lucas himself. 

Agree.  Whether you call it "Expanded Universe" or "Legends" it's all still just a bunch of stuff that might have happened to the Star Wars characters until a movie or TV show overrode it. 

For me personally, I don't really care if ALL expanded universe is immediately Star Wars Legends or just post-ROTJ or whatever.  At the end of the day, I'm still going to see the EU as the "real" Star Wars continuity until something over-rides it.

So, even though the marriage of Han and Leia and the Anakin, Jacen, and Jaina that resulted from it is now immediately "Legends", it's still the post-ROTJ story of Han Solo until I have something else.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 29, 2014, 09:08 PM
Hoojibs...  They're real.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 29, 2014, 09:13 PM
BTW just to prove a portion of my point further... 

In the Rebels news with the new hi-res images, there are Wookiee prisoners in the background in chains...  Wookiee slaves?  More EU becoming Legends becoming canon?  Looks like it may be.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jeff on April 29, 2014, 09:13 PM
Hoojibs...  They're real.

And they're spectacular.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: EdSolo on April 30, 2014, 07:30 AM
Quote
I believe everyone is missing the point here.  The announcement has said there is no more EU.  There is canon and there is Legends.  Essentially everything we have seen as the EU is now Legends.  Canon now consists of the films, CW TV series, Rebels TV series, the upcoming Darth Maul comic and everything else coming forward, essentially starting in 2015.  Everything else is dead and gone.

Actually, I don't think you're totally seeing the point Ed, but I'm actually not even disagreeing with some of what you're saying totally, but feel you're reading way too much into this statement on the matter. 

EU was NEVER canon, and that's my point.  There was NEVER a hierarchy to it...  It was always what Lucas said, and the rest was bunk if he decided.  LFL was pretty clear on this, as was Lucas himself. 

LFL officially called the EU "The Official Continuity" (Been over this a billion times, so if anyone disagrees it's on you to google this yourself...  It's everywhere), which encompassed anything outside the films.  They tried to crowbar it all together unless it contradicted the established canon of the time...  IE: the films and what Lucas was saying "This is, and this isn't" himself.

You think they did a good job, I think they were cash grabbing with a ton of EU and were stepping all over each other.  Sometimes little stuff, sometimes bigger stuff.  I found half of the EU pretty ****** though, personally...  It's neither here nor there though, as EU is what it always was, and appears to still be the same now.

You can call it "Legends", "Old Stories That May Not Be True", "Lucas Era EU", whatever... But that still means it's just EU as EU always was...  It's there, but as the official statement said, they'll draw elements from it, and all the future stuff going forward CAN draw from it possibly (I assume they'll have a bit more of a tight control on it than LFL did however), and this stuff can all be overwritten at any time because they (Disney) don't want painted into a corner creatively because that's what seemingly half of existing EU would do to them.  Makes sense, and tough to argue with.  Disney paid billions, and doesn't want hamstrung by stories they don't want to make into movies, etc.  They want to make their OWN money.

There is nothing in that press release though saying, "______ is 'out' now" or anything like that...  It's obvious though much will be overwritten going forward.  But not yet.  Looking at where they're starting Episode VII timeline wise, for example, The Truce At Bakura may be a story that totally fits, and as such, it's still a story I think fans of it (all 3) could say "Well that fits so I still consider it part of the universe, blah blah blah".  Personally I think it's a bad story, so I never considered it part of my Star Wars world, but whatever.

Canon has expanded now, going forward, which to me is the far larger headline in that story...  Canon was never anything but the films, now it's much, much more.  That's the thing I'd say I am not a fan of seeing happen.  Who wants ****** stories shoveled down their throat?  There has been so much BAD Star Wars written since the early 90's that it was appreciated that EU could basically be ignored by any fan as part of "their Star Wars" experience...  as if rules about discussing a fictional universe are something normal people would want to deal with anyway.  ::)

I think the outbursts that "EU is purged!  EU is dead!", and so on, are really exaggerated though.  It should be "Canon is Expanding and May Overwrite Your Favorite EU Story".  EU being called Legends doesn't really change it at all from what it already was though... Something that wasn't canon, just part of what LFL called the "Official Continuity" (Leeland Chee's words)...  It's still something that if it fits great for the people who liked it I suppose.  And if not, it's kaput (and that's a now evolving and growing thing).  It'll be interesting to see what elements they carry over, what they drop. 

Obviously a lot is on the way out though.  NJO looks pretty much on the chopping block entirely right now.

Like the press release said though, elements of the EU will be available to anyone developing new stuff, so who knows what good things people liked could turn up.  I like that Filoni has an affinity for the old RPG material because I do too, and he's putting a bit of that into Rebels (already).  It's now a new, ever-changing world.  Star Wars hasn't been that way for a while, so it's at least interesting if nothing else.

I believe Leeland Chee would disagree with you.  As I stated before, Lucas had always said that he could rewrite anything he wanted to.  In 2000 Lucasfilm hired Leland Chee to oversee Star Wars continuity.  At this point, different levels of canon were created.  There was G, C, S and N canon.  T canon was added with the Clone Wars series. 

G - George Lucas canon - this is the movies and anything stated by Lucas.
T- Television canon - at the time it included the Clone Wars series from Cartoon network and was to include the "live action series" that never materialized.
C - Continuity canon - this is the bulk of the old EU.  Novels, games, comics, etc.  This is where most timeline/continuity errors would occur.
S - Secondary canon - this is where they dumped stuff that didn't fit, like older pre-2000 novels and such.
N - Non canon - items like the infinities comics series, alternate paths in video games, and deleted scenes in movies that would contradict what happened in the actual film.

I never stated that everything in the EU was canon, but that there were levels as set out by Lucasfilm which could be contradicted at any point by Lucas or Lucasfilm.  The Clone Wars series did that several times.

What the announcement does mean, like it or not, is that the old EU is now considered Legends and the above levels of canon are essentially gone.  Going forward is would be canon (which would combine G, T, and C levels of old) and Legends (which would combine S and N and dump the old C level stuff here).  Items from Legends can be used and elevated to canon, but until they are, they are just stories.  I don't think we are going to see much of that, especially with post ROTJ era stories.  Characters like the Solo kids, Mara Jade, and the young Jedi Knights are most likely gone.

A lot of what you stated about Disney and canon going forward is what I stated in my previous post.  While I have enjoyed the EU as a whole over the years, I do like the idea of everything actually counting going forward.  I generally don't like retcons that were required to explain contradictions.  The Clone Wars were a separate mess that Leeland Chee had stated that they were waiting until after the series ended to attempt to make everything fit, which is now a moot point.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: jediraven82 on April 30, 2014, 10:25 AM
I picked a really good time to re-read the Thrawn trilogy...

Oh well, as long as they don't come out and specifically say KOTOR never happened I won't be too upset.  Speaking of, the head of Xbox said he'd love to see KOTOR re-released on the Xbox One(I assume the One anyway).  I wonder if Disney would even allow that now.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Scott on April 30, 2014, 12:46 PM
I'm not sure I have read anywhere but I am curious based on a Tweet I saw from Willrow Hood, what does this news mean for all of the craptacular backstories created for the Databank?  Even if the characters are canon does it mean that Hammerhead was a plant loving hippy named Momaw Nadon or not?  Is Willrow Hood carrying an Ice Cream Maker or a (lame) Computer Memory Core?
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: EdSolo on April 30, 2014, 01:19 PM
The backgrounds would all be Legends until such a time they would be included in new material.  In a bit of weird news, the Han Solo Adventures and the Lando Calrissian Adventures from 1979 and 1983 respectively are being rereleased in the fall with a Legends banner on the cover.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jeff on April 30, 2014, 02:11 PM
Even if the characters are canon does it mean that Hammerhead was a plant loving hippy named Momaw Nadon or not?

Excellent question.  Are Ohwun/Chachi De Maal, back to being Ellors Madak/Baniss Keeg, or are they nerfed all the way back to just "Duros"?  Or is that even Legends, so now they're back to being "Goggle-Eyes" as they were called in the SW call-sheet for the cantina?

These are definitely the types of things we should be worrying about.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: SnTrooper on April 30, 2014, 02:31 PM
I really feel bad for the people that run Wookieepedia. Now every article on the site that isn't purely from the movies/tv shows (Unidentified Rebel #2, Tera Sinube, Zeb, etc) or already was noncannon (LEGO games, Tag & Bink, Infinities, etc) is outdated. Even if it just means slapping a Legends banner on it.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on April 30, 2014, 02:40 PM
Willrow Hood is legendary, not "legend"ary.  Long live the Ice Cream Maker!
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on April 30, 2014, 02:54 PM
1) Disney had to have free reign on what happens in the new movies, books, games, etc. I understand  that.
2) Doesn't mean the books, games, etc. didn't happen, because they WERE produced, written etc. Toys were made, blah blah blah

Those are the two things that make whatever they do okay with my brain. It's fiction, I can deal if it doesn't all fit together, I will always consider it all "true" and the word canon will just not matter to me.

That being said, the biggest kick in the nuts for me on what Disney is doing, AND I have only skimmed a lot of people's posts here, so sorry if I say something wrong or attribute it to the wrong person.

But if what Jesse said was correct, ie until the Disney stuff "cancels" it out it is still canon, I'd be more ok with it. But if what Ed says, it's just all not canon right off the bat, that is the typical Disney kick in the nuts to me. Mickey says, "Who cares that this stuff has been in the lexicon for up to 37 years. We bought this, which means we can do what we want, and so it's all not canon anymore." Up yours! I think, for those of us who enjoy EU stuff, that is an ahole move. It just adds to my dislike of Disney.

Why not piss me off one item at a time? Let me think Thrawn exists while I deal with Jacen and Jaina and Mara not existing. "Un-canon" it as called for. But don't wipe it from canon asap.

The Legends thing is better than nothing, but overall bad taste in my mouth.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on April 30, 2014, 03:38 PM
Even if the characters are canon does it mean that Hammerhead was a plant loving hippy named Momaw Nadon or not?

Excellent question.  Are Ohwun/Chachi De Maal, back to being Ellors Madak/Baniss Keeg, or are they nerfed all the way back to just "Duros"?  Or is that even Legends, so now they're back to being "Goggle-Eyes" as they were called in the SW call-sheet for the cantina?

These are definitely the types of things we should be worrying about.

I can't even wrap my head around what this would mean if it's out.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 30, 2014, 04:51 PM
Ed,

That's exactly why I said to you we're basically saying the same thing in my last post.  ;D

EU was ALWAYS EU...  It was always something Lucas could, and did, dump on when he wanted to.  Even Clone Wars was kept below the canon because if Lucas had a fart crosswise on any given day, he maybe would've gutted it.  But EU was and is still EU.

And yeah, EU is going to be called Legends, which means it's still just EU that can be dumped on, just now with a longer name to type out.  That's been my point from the start.  That's my point now.  I'm glad you see it my way.  :P  EU isn't dead, it's just there with a different name, just like before in just about every way.  Clone Wars 3D got bumped up.  Okie dokie.  Nothing changed then more or less to people.

The expanded universe isn't "dead" though, is the main point (which was being bandied about way too much from Twitter to forums)...  It's there.  You can't kill something created like that.  Even if overwritten it'll be there for people to enjoy, who did enjoy it.  It won't, in some dipshitty nerd argument online, override the films or whatnot, but who cares?  It's a hypothetical argument about a fictional galaxy, so who cares what anyone says you can think? 

If someone comes up and says, "No that's not true because Book X overwrote that story in the Disney era!  You can't think like that!", you can calmly explain to that person what a woman actually feels like, and then tell them you don't want to talk to them about Star Wars anymore because they're being a ******bag.

Like what you want, F what anyone tells you, and enjoy Star Wars how YOU want to enjoy it.  That's the best advice anyone can be given.  It's like these new movies...  They won't take away the first 3 you loved, so why let them make you hate a franchise you loved?  I have learned to loathe Episode 1, but it won't make me hate Star Wars. 

If the people making the new stuff have the EU at their fingertips to dip into, why can't fants?  I'll take and leave what I want.  It's easy.  Likewise I'll do the same with any novels, games, comics and other junk coming forward in the Disney era where someone who didn't even create this fictional universe is now buying said fictional universe to make money off said fictional universe.

Again, the simple point this whole thread has been that EU isn't "dead".  Dead implies it ceases to exist.  You can't make a book cease to exist in the mind of someone.  Likewise, EU may be called something other than EU, but elements of EU are already being written into whatever they think the new definition of "canon" is, which means elements of the things you or I loved will still be around and that gives EU now as much credibility as EU had before.  IE: There till overwritten.

And who knows what's coming from books, comics, and games...  It could be some really dismal work.  I don't know what they are, how good they'll be, etc.  LFL always said they kept that in check, but every interview with Lucas can clearly show you they didn't and that he found most of it laughable.  So I imagine Disney will be equally light-handed and look at it as the investment it is, not as something holy to be cherished.  If the guy who created it didn't, Disney won't.  To that end, I'll stick with picking and choosing from the new EU-canon they're rolling out.  I want to like it all.  I just know better from decades of being a fan that it won't all be quality work.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 30, 2014, 04:57 PM
Even if the characters are canon does it mean that Hammerhead was a plant loving hippy named Momaw Nadon or not?

Excellent question.  Are Ohwun/Chachi De Maal, back to being Ellors Madak/Baniss Keeg, or are they nerfed all the way back to just "Duros"?  Or is that even Legends, so now they're back to being "Goggle-Eyes" as they were called in the SW call-sheet for the cantina?

These are definitely the types of things we should be worrying about.

The two guys who WERE are now brothers  One named Duros, who works in a Tatooine adult toy store with his brother Harold.  They're arguing about the fake dong selection because Harold says they should be organized by size, and Duros says it should be a color palette. 

I like the new direction this new EU is going with this because some guys just work at an adult toy store on a backwater planet, and aren't out to assassinate Jabba The Hutt, or flew with Darth Vader once in the Clone Wars, or were secret spies for the Alliance or Empire.

Some guys are just guys, working at a crummy job with their brother, arguing about adult toy displays.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on April 30, 2014, 05:03 PM
Some guys are just guys, working at a crummy job with their brother, arguing about adult toy displays.

And others want to serve ice cream in a nice quiet floating city on Bespin.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 30, 2014, 05:25 PM
Exactly.

Some guys just fix AT-ST's...  That's it.  They do nothing else.  They have a wife and kids...  They get up, go to work, and start fixing.

Some guys build Destroyers for a living...  Welders, electricians...

Star Wars' biggest EU flaw was everyone had to be something.  The world's made up of nobodies.  Not everyone in a bar is a criminal, or an assassin stalking his prey.

I bet one of the people wandering Mos Eisley that probably got some assinine backstory was just looking for a place with a public toilet because he'd eaten some bad Bantha and had the trots.  His "EU" story probably was that he was a spy, for the Alliance, monitoring Imperial Patrol numbers in the city, and alarmed by the increased Sandtrooper presence!  *Gasp!*

Nah, he sharted, and was looking to clean up.  That's all.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on April 30, 2014, 05:37 PM
Nah, he sharted, and was looking to clean up.  That's all.

Yeah, that makes me think of the poor street cleaner on Mos Espa that didn't get around to cleaning up so Artoo ran through it.

But that's a valid reason why I didn't like some EU: everyone was connected to some major character through some reason.  Some of this was from the card game.  But I liked the backstory for Nobot (the 3-PO wandering around Mos Espa).  He was considered some ghost robot, cursed... but his story is likely nowhere to be found now.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 30, 2014, 07:17 PM
The "Tales of" books really crapped out a lot of spanners in their time too.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: SnTrooper on April 30, 2014, 07:20 PM
The expanded universe isn't "dead" though
It is in the sense that there won't be any new stories coming from it. "Canceled" might be a better term. Like a TV show. Sure you still have the DVDs, it's still being shown in reruns, but there isn't going to be any new episodes. And the remake they are working on is, for the most part, going to ignore the old show and do their own thing.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on April 30, 2014, 07:50 PM
Yeah, cancelled is maybe better...  But, there's more "EU" coming, in a sense.

Really, if you wanted to, ALL this stuff is expanded universe now, including these new movies, just as it used to be...  Classic Star Wars "Certain point of view" coming. 

It's not Lucas anymore.  It's not like these people created Star Wars, they're just being allowed to play in that universe because someone with money bought the rights to do so.  Lucas is more or less washing his hands of it.  Wanna bet he's not looking at it like it's "canon"?  Wanna bet he's even laughing at some of the ideas?  There's a quote where he said Luke would never have married, the story's about Vader and a tragedy, he'd never have written 7-9 anything like the EU that's out there, and he isn't writing 7-9 now.

Think about it like this...  I'm a huge LOTR fan, to the point I jumped at a chance to take a class on studying JRR Tolkien as a writer...  If someone wrote more stuff based on Tolkien's Middle-Earth simply because his family sold the rights to do so, I wouldn't consider it anything but EU to that world, no matter what the guy who bought it told me.

The hypothetical he/she who did this (paid for it, etc) may think their work is "canon", but who cares what they say?  View the new books, games, etc., as just more EU if you feel like it...  Like I said SnTrooper, who's to tell you you're not right?  Would you want to be engaged in a conversation on Star Wars that's supposed to be fun, or interesting, or make you think about something you didn't think about, when they're going to throw the "canon" word around at you like there's laws and rules to a world that doesn't even exist?

Why do your thoughts not matter?

I find that person sad, personally.  They want to control the thoughts of others.  I doubt Disney even views it so rigidly.  They'd probably roll their eyes at this conversation even being entertained.

Me and my customizing buddies used to spend evenings chatting about different designs we came up with for ships, aliens, whatever.  We'd cite real-world tech, biology, Star Wars Tech or design commonalities, etc.  But it was just brainstorming...  Sometimes people would come into the conversations saying, "Well it can't be like _____ because comic _____ established that it can't be... blah blah blah".

Yeah, THAT's a guy I want to waste 1 second of my life talking to. :P

You can cite things sure, but when someone says, "Eh, I don't like that", guess what?  He's as right to say that as you were to cite it because you're neither one George Lucas...  And hell, even George Lucas LAUGHED at EU, regularly.  I can dish quotes all day long of him poo-poo'ing the EU that made him lots of money, and gave fans mixed feelings.  Boba getting vomited from the Sarlacc?  Lucas hated the idea.  Coruscant?  He had to be convinced to use it because it was a major planet in the PT and he wanted to name it himself. 

I wouldn't doubt for a second Lucas, in his heart, doesn't think the Disney Era Star Wars is really Star Wars to him.  He may like aspects of it, but I bet he's going to his grave thinking Star Wars was basically 6 movies he made about Darth Vader, and it ended there.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on April 30, 2014, 11:42 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, Jesse, but I thought I read that Lucas wrote the plot/story for this new prequel... or at least had the idea.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on May 1, 2014, 12:18 AM
I keep seeing conflicting things on that...  Wookieepedia has him basically stating no, and he never wrote anything for it, it's about Vader, etc...  Like the Prequals (and the confusion surrounding how much of those he says he knew at the time the OT was made compared to what he says now), this is murky and his story sort of changes...  Here's a couple quotes:

Quote
    Interviewer: "Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?"

    Lucas: "But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."

&

Quote
    TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"
    LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"
    TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
    LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

I'll say this...  I like Leeland Chee because he's an interactive guy with the fans, and passionate, but Lucas as a boss made his job nigh on impossible.  Howard Roffman as well, though he was seemingly less involved in a direct way with the fans.

Now, for me, this was never that big an issue.  But for LFL, it was...  It was like they HAD to try to keep things cohesive and retcon everything for the fans, or select groups would go batshit over something.

I admit too, I dislike when they step over existing EU tidbits, but mine usually aren't plotpoints.  They're things like, "Why did ROTS use AT-RT's, which were **** from a  military perspective, when the AT-PT was established in EU even as a vehicle from the Clone Wars era, and was miles superior?"

Well the reason there is because the AT-PT's less visually interesting obviously, but it made more sense.  Damn my logic.  But yeah that's kinda the stuff I sit and bum about wishing we'd seen...  Maybe we will in Rebels?  I can dream.

BUT, Lucas says in the last quote above that he doesn't even more features, much less 7-9!  He directly addresses he has no story for 7-9 either, and that he'd never have made it anything like any of the EU he'd apparently heard about but never read (according to himself). 

Is he lying?  Maybe, I dunno.  I don't think 1-3 were fleshed in 83 like he claims they were, frankly.  I think he maybe had a ballpark idea, but not what we ultimately see.  Maybe he had a ballpark idea on 7-9, but he's pretty vehement there that this is Vader's story, not Vader's kid's story.

If Lucas is the all-powerful and people are rigid about that stuff too, it's funny that that quote basically wipes out Mara Jade all together too.  Good times.

Canon is a word someone is trying to force on you...  Be yourself and enjoy Star Wars however you want.  You'll feel better.  Acknowledge only the movies.  Or only the original movies.  Or only the PT.  Or everything.  Or just one movie.  Whatever. 

In my dipshitty Star Wars world, the Empire has the "Aliens" from the Alien films captive and are experimenting.  Kyle Katarn was sent to their base where the presumed biological warfare experiment was taking place to get information on it.  Xenomorphs escape.  Fun ensues.  The Empire poops itself to clean up the "spill", and Katarn hauls ass from the planet (a desolate rock of a moon) not really knowing what he saw, just knowing he wished he hadn't!

Why do I crowbar that into my SW universe?  Because it fits because I want it to, and I dig Kyle Katarn, and once I played a custom level to Jedi Knight that was exactly that storyline, and it was one of the greatest Star Wars games I ever played in my life, made by a fan who didn't care if you told him, "but it's not canon!", since he did it just for fun and to make people smile.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: EdSolo on May 1, 2014, 06:58 AM
Lucas has been all over the map with how many movies there were to be.  He has stated every thing from one, three, six, nine and twelve.  I think there was something out there that he did storyboards or outlines for the sequels prior to the Disney sale.  Also, I believe a rumor from the nine/twelve days was that ROTJ would have occurred during the Episode VII to IX era, that the OT would have been expanded and we wouldn't have seen the Emperor until the second trilogy.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Nicklab on May 1, 2014, 09:27 AM
Lucas very likely came up with the outlines for the Sequel Trilogy in an effort to sell Lucasfilm / Star Wars.  Without something like that to sweeten the deal, I can't see why Disney would have bought the company.  The big money for them would have been with new movies.

I think the status of some stories in the EU will become more clear as we move forward.  Clearly, the REBELS series is going shape things as is the production of the Sequel Trilogy and the spinoff movies.  Those productions are going to be the signposts that determine what's valid or "canon".  I think the Star Wars Story Group is going to have to remain somewhat mum about things in an effort to keep from spoiling the new movies and tv projects.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Angry Ewok on May 2, 2014, 01:39 PM
So it goes. I loved the Thrawn stuff and jumped right in when the post ROTJ stuff started. Then just as quickly . . . realized I would have to pick and choose what stories I followed.

That is what most of us have done for years, not only with the expanded universe, but with the stupid **** in the special editions and the prequels. Midichlorians is crap, Greedo never shot, Stormtroopers aren't clones, Anakin's ghost wasn't Sith Anakin because old Ben's ghost wasn't General Kenobi and Yoda's ghost wasn't that ******* ugly pignosed green puppet from Phantom Menace.

Disney can do whatever it wants to. I'll always accept the Caravan of Courage, Shadows of the Empire, Heir to the Empire, the Rogue Squadron books, and select stories from the Tales books and Empire comics that were awesome.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on May 6, 2014, 04:06 PM
There was an article in the Mpls/St Paul Star Tribune newspaper (yes they still exist) on Sunday from a Washington Post columnist so other newspapers, etc. too I'm sure entitled "Disney's biggest Star Wars mistake".  Numerous points about the EU I thought were very good. Some of my favorite quotes:

"If these stories sound shaggy and uneven and strange, it is because they are. But the EU could be the best possible result when big corporations get excited about monetizing fan enthusiasm. It was a place where female characters thrived, where telling genre story did not always mean following a blockbuster convention and where there was endless hunger for worlds that felt new."

My note- Really liked that because a lot of people will say Lucas let everything go and gave his "thumbs up" in EU stories for the money it made him. That may very well be true, but didn't necessarily make the EU a bad thing therefore.

"Now that Disney has decided Star Wars is a big mainstream business again, the company has killed off the EU in favor of something grander and probably blander."
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Angry Ewok on May 6, 2014, 04:20 PM
...and how are you going to tell me Grand Admiral Thrawn doesn't exist?
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on May 6, 2014, 04:23 PM
I am a mixed bag on EU in terms of quality.  I could find elements of anything I enjoyed, but I also found a lot of it to be pretty poor quality.  I'd say I'm probably not even 50/50 in that regard and really felt like the majority was pretty bad...  Some small stories (Tales of series) were that way to me, and some huge story arcs (NJO) were that way to me.

I think the only entire single series I enjoyed was the Thrawn Trilogy.

Video games, for me, had better stories to them generally...  Possibly because they focused on my favorite aspects of the Saga, the military/war aspect of it.  So X-Wing, TIE Fighter, X-Wing: Alliance, Dark Forces/Jedi Knight/Mysteries of the Sith...  Republic Commando, Rogue Squadron (all of 'em), Force Commander, Empire At War, elements of Galactic Battlegrounds... 

I also liked the RPG's back in the day.  The old West End Games stuff was the first to really flesh out EU much at all.  It wasn't all good stuff, but it was all short little bits and pieces.  And games like the original Miniatures Battles established the "Naval Troopers" for the Empire, the original and awesome (far better than the ****** comic version) Zero-G Stormtrooper, Rebel Scout Troopers, Rebel "Infiltrators", Imperial Army Troopers, etc. 

Of course they also said AT-AT's were only 15 m tall too, so nothing was perfect in EU to me.

I'm looking at these new movies as things Lucas didn't make...  Like anything else, they'll maybe be good or maybe not.  I'm not fixating on it.  I don't think taking existing stories and making a movie of them would've worked too well though.  A TV show perhaps, like Rogue Squadron the cartoon or whatnot, but I just can't see a movie out of even the novels I really did like.  I could and can still see some EU characters creeping into any given movie though.  I doubt much of it will, but why not?

I'm just kicking back and enjoying it for what it is, and enjoying my old EU stuff that I liked as well.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Angry Ewok on May 6, 2014, 04:26 PM
I would love to see a poll on the most enjoyed / least enjoyed EU contributions.

I'm guessing the Thrawn Trilogy, Shadows of the Empire, and the Rogue Squadron Series would be favorites?
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on May 6, 2014, 04:48 PM
Quote
"Now that Disney has decided Star Wars is a big mainstream business again, the company has killed off the EU in favor of something grander and probably blander."

This is the where the author loses legitimacy.  This is just his opinion and no one yet knows how Episode VII, the one-offs, or Disney's other media is going to be.  I mean, this sounds like a bitter fanboy right here.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on May 6, 2014, 05:32 PM
Quote
"Now that Disney has decided Star Wars is a big mainstream business again, the company has killed off the EU in favor of something grander and probably blander."

This is the where the author loses legitimacy.  This is just his opinion and no one yet knows how Episode VII, the one-offs, or Disney's other media is going to be.  I mean, this sounds like a bitter fanboy right here.

I think it was a opinion piece. Of course she couldn't have been writing a factual piece on what Disney is doing. No one knows what they are doing. But she is in the same Nerd boy status as I. "Opinion" doesn't cancel out legitimacy. It's opinion. And I agree with her that it's a possibility. So it could be legitimate. I believe she says probably. Not that she is sure. I liked the article so I mentioned it.

Didn't post it to say "See I told you I was right!"

I love being a bitter fan boy. Thanks for calling me out
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: P-Siddy on May 6, 2014, 05:52 PM
Quote
"Now that Disney has decided Star Wars is a big mainstream business again, the company has killed off the EU in favor of something grander and probably blander."

This is the where the author loses legitimacy.  This is just his opinion and no one yet knows how Episode VII, the one-offs, or Disney's other media is going to be.  I mean, this sounds like a bitter fanboy right here.

I think it was a opinion piece. Of course she couldn't have been writing a factual piece on what Disney is doing. No one knows what they are doing. But she is in the same Nerd boy status as I. "Opinion" doesn't cancel out legitimacy. It's opinion. And I agree with her that it's a possibility. So it could be legitimate. I believe she says probably. Not that she is sure. I liked the article so I mentioned it.

Didn't post it to say "See I told you I was right!"

I love being a bitter fan boy. Thanks for calling me out

I wasn't calling you out... just several of the things I've seen posted elsewhere.  But to me, it sounds like the author is saying they are getting rid of EU for something crappier, which isn't fair.  Now, come Episode VII and it isn't great, then I think it's a legitimate gripe; but to complain about something before it happens, that's where I mean it sounds like the bitter fanboy rant.  So basically she is pre-judging the new trilogy because the EU was declared "Legacy" and not canon by Disney.

But, again, Nick, just because Disney says it isn't so, doesn't mean that you can't think it's so in your SW world.  Trust me, there are things tinkered with in the Original Trilogy Special Editions that aren't canon to me (Greedo shoots first, etc).  I remember complaining about that and having people counter it by saying, "It's Lucas' movies, he can do what he wants."  I guess Disney now has those rights to make those changes, but it doesn't mean they own the memory of the Star Wars I love... I hope that's the way you feel about it as well.

Sometimes this EU debate is worse than some of the political ones in the Sarlacc Pit.  ;D
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on May 6, 2014, 07:32 PM
Quote
But to me, it sounds like the author is saying they are getting rid of EU for something crappier, which isn't fair.

Especially when they're NOT GETTING RID OF TH EU! ( ;D)

But I know what you're saying there too...  I agree completely.  If 7-9 suck, just ignore them.

I feel like we're trying to talk you off the bitter fanboy ledge Nick. :P

I mean, there's always going to be this element of Star Wars nerd debate/discussion that will say you can't think one way or the other because someone somewhere is throwing out what is canon and what isn't.  I say, simply, ignore that if you want...  or not...  whatever works for you.

I love talking Star Wars what if's, and stuff like that.  Like I said, me and CorranHorn, and DarthSchroeder (oh where art thou?) would debate and discuss Star Wars vehicles to no end when we were all less busy and chat rooms were a thing that wasn't just on Dateline NBC.

I loved making up designs of vehicles...  Scratch builds...  We'd discuss what made sense with EU designs like the Hound's Tooth (which we then discussed has deck-by-deck plans actually out there in the EU already).

Lots of good talk...  That talk isn't going away to me. 

Like I said, Kyle Katarn fought the Aliens from the movie Aliens.  That's my Star Wars.  It's dumb to many, but to me I love it.  Even have some sweet Hot Toys Aliens ripping apart Stormtroopers on my shelf, and getting some ready for harvesting. :P
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on May 6, 2014, 09:25 PM
I'm not going anywhere that's for sure. I have always been the person who thinks "as much as TPM sucks, I'm still glad the world I've always loved since a kid got to have more story to it". For me ANH, ESB, ROTJ don't get diluted by other SW not being up to their standards. And so I've always felt that way about EU too. I've loved SW for as long as I remember, have been collecting/playing with the toys for about as long and so if my choice is X amount of star wars or X + EU then sign me up for X+EU even if it isn't all excellent. So I'm glad we are getting 7, 8, 9.

I can't fully articulate my annoyance, but as I've said before, I understand why they want to start fresh, but it still rubs me the wrong way when anyone, whether it's Disney or just another fan who just poo poos the EU like it doesn't count even when that may not actually be what they are saying.

I have always been the person who likes when people say "this is what I consider a part of my SW world and what I don't". And we can all do that. But again when whoever decides to "tell me" or I decide to imply that's what they were doing then I get pissy. So Jesse saying he doesn't like 50% plus of EU or NJO when I love NJO and probably 80% of EU, I read that and go ok. Other posts don't come off as "this is my SW world" but "this should be everyone's SW world" (I probably do it myself). That gets me. Anyway I just completed another incoherent rant so.......

I think there are things in the world going on that actually matter but who has time for that.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Jesse James on May 6, 2014, 09:43 PM
It's all about people telling you what to believe about a world that doesn't even exist...  That sums it up.  Believe what you want about that world because it's all fiction so who gives a hoot what some guy says you "should" think about it?

I have my likes, you have yours...  Some people will look to be directed as to what is and what isn't, and that's their thing.

It's like imagination rules.  That's something that doesn't jive well with me.  Logic I get, and I like to bring it up in discussions, but a good example for me is the AT-AT's deployment mechanisms...

Originally it knelt to the ground and troops debarked by the large belly door.  Then "zip lines" came about.

I hybrid that and say both are possible, and for different reasons both are employed.  Zip lines in "hot zones", kneeling walkers to deploy more slowly and orderly, or to load/unload larger cargo.

Some hate the thought of AT-AT's kneeling at all...  I see it as quite possible, and logical to have the ability since their designation is that of a transport.  Helicopters can land, and they can zip line troopers, and they do both for distinct reasons.

Someone might say that the zip line idea supersedes the kneeling idea, and is "canon" and thus I can't say they kneel...  I say toss off, and please don't tell myself or others what an AT-AT can or can't do.  I can say it can tap dance if I feel like because guess what?  AT-AT's don't friggin' exist, nerd!  :)  Then, proceed to wedgie everyone.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Angry Ewok on May 7, 2014, 07:52 AM
Once the new movies come out, we and others will likely attempt to rationalize everything so that, somehow, all of those pieces actually fit. And then another Disney entry ignoring fan-favorite EU, and again we try to bend THAT into EU. Eventually, it won't work anymore - and we "old timers" that cling to the old ways will gradually be banned from forums populated by Star Wars fans who subscibe to Disney's way of things.

See you in hell, Walt Disney and George Lucas!
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Qui-Gon Jim on May 7, 2014, 08:46 AM

I wasn't calling you out... just several of the things I've seen posted elsewhere.  But to me, it sounds like the author is saying they are getting rid of EU for something crappier, which isn't fair.  Now, come Episode VII and it isn't great, then I think it's a legitimate gripe; but to complain about something before it happens, that's where I mean it sounds like the bitter fanboy rant.  So basically she is pre-judging the new trilogy because the EU was declared "Legacy" and not canon by Disney.

But, again, Nick, just because Disney says it isn't so, doesn't mean that you can't think it's so in your SW world.  Trust me, there are things tinkered with in the Original Trilogy Special Editions that aren't canon to me (Greedo shoots first, etc).  I remember complaining about that and having people counter it by saying, "It's Lucas' movies, he can do what he wants."  I guess Disney now has those rights to make those changes, but it doesn't mean they own the memory of the Star Wars I love... I hope that's the way you feel about it as well.

Sometimes this EU debate is worse than some of the political ones in the Sarlacc Pit.  ;D

This pretty much sums up how I feel.  To me it is much like Marvel.  The movies don't jive with 100% of everything that has come before, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy stories, even if they contradict something in a movie series I love.  I still love the Zahn books.  The fact that they aren't part of the official chronology doesn't really matter at all to me.  At some point, the amount of time these characters spend in peril is unrealistic anyway.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: GrandMoffNick on May 7, 2014, 08:51 AM
See you in hell, Walt Disney and George Lucas!

Amen
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Nicklab on May 7, 2014, 09:22 AM
I think the Marvel analogy is appropriate.  When Marvel studios launched they deliberately found someone who would effectively map out the MCU in Kevin Feige.  And truth be told, I think he's been a pretty good steward for the material.  The Star Wars Story Group seems to have been started so that there would be an authority that could devote their attention to all of this continuity in a similar fashion.

The movies really do need to be the end-all, be-all of the Star Wars universe.  And I see the trade-off for these new movies very much being the change in status of previously existing EU material as "Star Wars Legends".  The "Legends" status at least keeps the existing material on the market for fans of that material to continue to enjoy.  I'm left wondering if at some point the SW Story Group will relent and let some "Legends" storylines continue, but I think that's probably not going to be the case.

But it's really not without precedent that some EU material is going to get trodden upon.  Witness the CLONE WARS series trodding all over some of the stories that had been established in some EU novels.  It led EU author Karen Traviss to quit working on Star Wars novels since George Lucas effectively disregarded her work with his own story decisions for the CLONE WARS animated series.  At a point like that one, you get down to some fairly ruthless thinking:  which medium is going to reach the larger audience?  Or who's vision regarding Star Wars is more important/relevant?  In the case of the CLONE WARS/Karen Traviss controversy you knew how this was going to turn out:  George Lucas was going to get his way, and his vision was deemed more important for the overall direction of Star Wars.

I get the sense that the new EU is going to try to expand more on stories that have been established during this new Disney era.  And the vision of the filmmakers will be given the utmost consideration over other material.  THIS is the price of getting a Sequel Trilogy.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Angry Ewok on May 7, 2014, 11:20 PM
Quote
I get the sense that the new EU is going to try to expand more on stories that have been established during this new Disney era.  And the vision of the filmmakers will be given the utmost consideration over other material.  THIS is the price of getting a Sequel Trilogy.

I'll gamble the old days of picking up a random EU book and finding yourself at a random point on the timeline are completely over -- especially with DarkHorse gone. And that is a real damned shame.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Nicklab on May 8, 2014, 12:06 AM
I don't know that it was really so random.  Over the past several years the output of Dark Horse and Del Rey publishing had been focused on certain projects, and deliberate cross-promotion was absolutely going on.  Comics and books were tying in to where film and television projects left off.  Video games were spun off into comic series and novels.  And post ROTJ EU had been somewhat scattershot at first.  But then it got more focused with novel series like the NJO.

I think that what's going to be coming up in print and video games will probably have a similar kind of focus that builds from tv and film projects.  I think that Disney is probably going to be more ruthlessly focused on cross-promotion.  But I don't think we should kid ourselves that it wasn't going on before.
Title: Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
Post by: Angry Ewok on May 8, 2014, 07:06 AM
I mean random for the consumer.