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Multimedia => The Prequel Trilogy => Topic started by: JediMAC on March 27, 2003, 07:41 PM

Title: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: JediMAC on March 27, 2003, 07:41 PM
Some folks out there in Star Wars land are speculating that Mace Windu may have the makings of a "not so nice" Jedi Master after all.  Might even be playing both sides of the Force fence...  There's been some interesting hints and tidbits throughout the Prequels so far, along with some behind the scenes footage, dialogue, and story line that may lend credence to this theory.  Anyone have an opinion on the matter?

Do you think Mace might be assisting the bad guys, or might be a Dark Side plant in the Jedi Council, or may wind up turning to the Dark Side in Ep. 3?

I know someone who's got a whole slew of interesting (and compelling) evidence compiled on the subject.  Maybe he'll chime in here...   ;)
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: dustrho on March 31, 2003, 01:17 AM
One of my friends and I were watching AOTC this evening, and I've always thought Mace Windu was a "bad egg."  He says a bunch of little things here and there that sort of give it away.  One thing is when he says that Count Dooku couldn't be responsible for the planned attack on Padme, because it's not in his character.  There are other things he says that make it sound like he's not that good, but it's late and I just can't remember it.  I think he's the one that erases Kamino from the memory banks in the library.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Depmode on April 4, 2003, 09:15 AM
HRm..... I never thought of this.... This would for sure put an interesting twist on the whole SW movies... While he is not one of my favorite characters,  he has become VERY popular with the new movies... It would be interesting if he did indeed reveal himself as a dark sider... BUT... I dunno...  
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Morgbug on April 17, 2003, 01:00 AM
Wouldn't this be inconsistent with the actions of Windu on Geonosis though?  Maybe Windu is a good actor and the bit with Dooku was played up, but it sure didn't seem that way prior to reading this thread.  
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Darth Kenobi on April 27, 2003, 12:38 PM
I don't think that Mace is a "bad egg" and is in league with Dark Side. I think every Jedi in the PT as of Ep2 are in league with the Dark Side weather they know it or not.  The reason behind this is the fact that the Jedi get orders by the SC who for ten years is Papaltine (who is Darth Sidous IMO) and also fight for what will become the Emprie since (IMO).  
I think that if Lucas does have the Separist being the founding of the Rebel Alliance and the Jedi fighting for the Empire it would be kind of a tragedy for them since they will all die because of it.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: MisterPL on May 2, 2003, 02:33 PM
I know someone who's got a whole slew of interesting (and compelling) evidence compiled on the subject.  Maybe he'll chime in here...

That'd be me. I'm convinced Mace is the bad egg of the Prequel Trilogy. George has let slip what I consider to be more than a few clues pointing to Mace as a lynchpin bad guy in Episode III, so I've played Scooby-Doo and sniphed out as many as I can. Some are certainly more compelling than others. One or two are just silly. Many may chalk it up to coincidence. Judge for yourself:

- Fighting Style

Quote
As mentioned at StarWarsKids.com (http://www.starwarskids.com/enter_the_saga/epII/2002/20/index0a.html):
His combat skills are close to those used by Sith warriors, the Form VII lightsaber fighting style.

Quote
As mentioned at StarWars.com (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/macewindu/eu.html):
Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the Form VII discipline of combat, for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.

Lucas has provided enough background on Mace's fighting style to lead one to believe he'd be all too comfortable wielding a double-bladed lightsabre.

- Saber Color

Mace's is uniquely violet, a combination of Jedi blue and Sith red. Jackson's preference, or a subtle hint from Lucas?

- Saber Design

Darth Maul's Sith lightsaber (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/sithlightsaber/index_eu.html) looks suspiciously like Mace Windu's lightsaber (http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/jocasta/askjc20011119_2.html) as seen in The Phantom Menace. The lightsaber has since been conveniently "lost" on a mission.

- Character Design

Preliminary artwork for Mace (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/macewindu/index_bts.html) had a familiar Sithy silhouette before it was changed. And even the name "Mace," a name that dates back to the earliest treatment of Star Wars in 1973, has a decidedly sinister ring to it.

- The Actor

You don't hire an Academy Award nominee to play a 2-dimensional character. I don't care how lousy George is as a director, he does have vision. He knew what he was doing by selecting Samuel L. Jackson as a turncoat Jedi. Jackson's screen time has only increased since The Phantom Menace. He will be a pivotal player in Episode III.

- Defiance

Yoda orders Obi-Wan to capture Jango Fett. Mace doesn't hesitate to dispatch Fett once on the arena floor. Self-defense, or covering his tracks?

- The Jedi Blindspot

Mace is deliberately present at very key moments throughout Attack of the Clones, particularly when all-seeing Yoda should be able to detect the presence of the Sith. I believe Mace has been placed in the Jedi Order to cloud the Jedi council's vision.

Quote
From The Art of Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones

1) Scene 008 - INTERIOR CHANCELLOR'S OFFICE - DAY
Palpatine: Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?

Yoda closes his eyes.

Yoda: Worse than war, I fear... Much worse.

Palpatine: What?

Mace Windu: What do you sense, Master?

Yoda: The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is.

In a later deleted scene:

Quote
Scene 015 - INT. JEDI TEMPLE, CORRIDOR - EVENING
MACE WINDU and YODA walk down the long hallways, silhouetted by a lit room at the end.

Mace Windu: Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?

Yoda: Masking the future, is this disturbance in the Force.

Mace Windu: The propecy is coming true, the Dark Side is growing.

Yoda: And only those who have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future. Only going through the Dark Side can we see.

Mace Windu: It's been ten years, and the Sith still have not shown themselves. Do you think they are behind this?

Yoda: ...Out there, they are. A certainty that is.

Mace Windu: Do you think Obi-Wan's apprentice will be able to bring balance to the Force?

Yoda: Only if he chooses to follow his destiny.

"Only going through the Dark Side can we see." Big hint there. No wonder the scene was cut.

- Stickin' Up for the Bad Guys

Not only does he point the finger of accusation away, Mace comes to the defense of Count Dooku:

Quote
From The Art of Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones

Scene 008 - INTERIOR CHANCELLOR'S OFFICE - DAY
Padme: Do you have any idea who was behind this attack?

Mace Windu: Our intelligence points to disgruntled spice miners on the moons of Naboo. [add snicker]

Padme: But I think that Count Dooku was behind it.

There is a stir of surprise. They look at one another.

Ki-Adi Mundi: He is a political idealist, not a murderer.

Mace Windu: You know, M'Lady, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his nature.

Wrong. And then later, in the same scene, Mace sides with Palpatine regarding his choice for Padme's protectors:

Quote
Padme: Chancellor, please! I don't want any more guards!

Palpatine: I realize all too well that additional security might be disruptive for you, but perhaps someone you are familiar with... an old friend like... Master Kenobi... [and his obsessive young Padawan]

PALPATINE nods to MACE WINDU, who nods back

Mace Windu: That's possible.

He even goes as far as to defend Palpatine's plan against Obi-Wan's better judgment:

Quote
Scene 037 - INTERIOR JEDI TEMPLE, ATRIUM - DAY

MACE WINDU and OBI-WAN walk along the temple corridors. YODA accompanies them, riding in a small, floating chair.

Obi-Wan: I am concerned for my Padawan. He is not ready to be given this assignment on his own yet.

Yoda: The Council is confident in this [Mace's] decision, Obi-Wan.

Mace Windu: The boy has exceptional skills.

Obi-Wan: But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him... well, arrogant.

Yoda: Yes, yes. It's a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves, they are. Even the older, more experienced ones [Mace!].

Mace Windu: Remember, Obi-Wan. If the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance.

Obi-Wan: If he follows the right path.

- Final Episode II Select

Is it a coincidence that Lucas ended the Episode II Select images (http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/select/2001/08/select20010809.html) with this pensive shot of a troubled Jedi Master?

- Reluctant From the Start

Qui-Gon tells the Jedi Council of the existence of a Sith. (http://www.starwarskids.com/arena/who_said_it/archive/75_answer.html) Mace dismisses the possibility in an attempt to buy time for his Sith conspirator.

- Master of his Domain

In the video game Jedi Starfighter, Adi Gallia comments that Master Windu generally keeps his thoughts closely guarded from the other Jedi. Is Mace just a Jedi who likes his privacy, or is he covering a hidden agenda?

- The Episode III Flashbacks

There are reports that some scenes for Episode III were shot during pricincipal photography of Episode II. It's my assertion that these will be flashback scenes, seen from Mace's point of view during a scene in which Mace's true dual role is discovered.

Check out this image (http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/imageattack/2002/07/imageattack20020719.html). Mace in a darkened office with what appears to be a holoprojector in front of him and a troubled look on his brow. Could this be one of the flashback scenes shot for inclusion into Episode III revealing Mace's true allegiance? Who's he contacting?
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: JediMAC on May 2, 2003, 02:55 PM
Well, as much as I tend to think Mace is still a perfectly normal, stand-up, honest Jedi - your evidence and argument there MPL almost lead me to think that you're right.  Though I still doubt it...

But "Mace = Dark Side" is certainly there for the taking, if George decides to go in that direction, to say the least.  I just don't think it'll happen, though I wouldn't mind being surprised!  Nice bit of detective work John!   8)

Obviously this is more of a theory of Mace working with the Dark Side fellas in a type of allegiance, rather than actually being a Sith himself though.  Otherwise the statement "Always two there are.  Never more, never less" wouldn't hold true.  Only a couple years (or less if you're into spoilers) 'til we find out!
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Morgbug on May 2, 2003, 11:06 PM
Well dang.  I must say I am impressed.  Either MisterPL is bloody brilliant, or excessively paranoid and reading things into scenes that aren't there.  I know not which it is.  I do assure you that two years hence, if you are correct, I'll be here bowing before you.  

Regardless, an excellent description of why Mace acted the way he did on Geonosis.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Jedirhino on May 6, 2003, 09:48 AM
I see your point...I suppose the look on his face when he killed Jango almost seems that he was looking over his shoulder as if he didn't want anyone else to know that it was he that killed Jango...also they cut to Dooku after that and it seems that he didn't want to see it done, but that it seemed necessary because he messed up and Obi-Wan figures it all out...
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: paploo on May 18, 2003, 06:23 PM
i have always noticed a lot of tension between yoda and mace. I just think lucas would throw us a curve ball like that...

i heard jackson wanted a purple saber and lucas didnt know how to say no to him.

here is my impression.(this is only a joke) mace is actually darth vader, not lukes father. when vader is killed at the end he wasnt really killed it was a mind trick or something to cover his identity  (what the hell is this flash button for) is that a macromedia flash file here type thing
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: dustrho on May 21, 2003, 03:43 PM
I can't wait to see EP3, because Mace will definitely be a key player in the movie.

And MisterPL... you made some awesome points there!
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Darth Broem on May 28, 2003, 03:49 PM
Well I think the bad egg is going to be Jocasta Nu.  That's right the lippy littly librarian lady is the bad egg.  I think she's had a thing for Ct Dooku.  He can get her to do anything he wants including updating the Jedi Archives.  Even old librarian lady's fall for the bad boys.  Yep, Dooku had her erase Kamino from the files and told her to keep quiet about it for certain favors of the heart.  Nu is the one that will bring the Jedi order down eventually.  Pawns they are all pawns in the Star Wars universe :)
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Nicklab on June 2, 2003, 09:23 PM
I've heard the Mace Windu argument before.  However, I've thought for some time that Ki-Adi Mundi might be the rotten apple.  There are several reasons why.

First, Ki-Adi Mundi was only a Jedi Knight around the time of The Phantom Menace.  Even though he sat on the Jedi High Council, he was the only Knight among a group of Jedi Masters.  Perhaps there was some mistrust of him?

Second, the original databank listing for Ki-Adi Mundi listed him as having a binary brain.  As a result, it gave him insight into both the light side and dark side of the force.  An interesting side note is that this information was removed from his databank listing.  Perhaps it would lead some to conclusions about his as some sort of traitor?

He's also the only Jedi High Council member other than Yoda or MAce Windu who's had lines.  I don't think another mysterious Jedi traitor would arise without any kind of prior appearance in EPISODE I or II.  He also defends Count Dooku while in Palpatine's office.

Just my two cents worth.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: dustrho on June 2, 2003, 10:37 PM
Well I think the bad egg is going to be Jocasta Nu.  That's right the lippy littly librarian lady is the bad egg.  I think she's had a thing for Ct Dooku.  He can get her to do anything he wants including updating the Jedi Archives.  Even old librarian lady's fall for the bad boys.  Yep, Dooku had her erase Kamino from the files and told her to keep quiet about it for certain favors of the heart.  Nu is the one that will bring the Jedi order down eventually.  Pawns they are all pawns in the Star Wars universe :)

Wow, I never thought about that, nor have I heard anyone ever suggest that possibility.  That is very believable!  She seems to be the one in charge of the library there, so who else could have wiped out the files about Kamino?  She's not a Jedi, is she?  Perhaps Dooku used the Dark Side to command her to erase the file.

Very, VERY interesting point there!
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: MetalJedi on June 3, 2003, 02:16 AM
I thin Jocasta Nu AND Mace are in league with the Sith. Jocasta erased the computer bank memory and Mace is the one keeping all the "clouded" imagery from the council.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: dustrho on June 3, 2003, 11:25 AM
You're right MetalJedi... they BOTH could be working together on this.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Nicklab on June 3, 2003, 12:26 PM
One more thing about my Ki-Adi Mundi theory...he is herded into the center of the arena by Battle Droids during the cease-fire, when Dooku is addressing all the Jedi.  Perhaps he was intentionally spared, as to stay in the highest echelons of the Jedi order?

As for Mace, I have a hard time going along with the theory.  Jocasta Nu, I believe is a possibility, but not Mace.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: MetalJedi on June 4, 2003, 02:53 AM
I don't know about the Ki Adi Mundi theory. He was herded into the survivors along with Plo Koon and Aayla Secura.

Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Jedirhino on June 4, 2003, 09:44 PM
Plo and Adi were sent on a mission to destroy the control for the BD, SBD, and DD...if you look on the new Hyperspace it shows that scene roughly cut
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Nicklab on June 4, 2003, 11:38 PM
I know that.  However, in the theatrical cut, they didn't make the raid at all.  Both Jedi are in the arena from begining to end.  Anyway, I'm sticking by my theory.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Vator on June 7, 2003, 10:23 PM
In Shatterpoint,it is revealed that he admires Palpatine. :o
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Dressel Rebel on June 7, 2003, 10:28 PM
I'm pretty sure Mace wasn't "placed in the Jedi Council to cloud the Jedi's vision" or is some kind of "sith plant" onto the council.

Why?

Always two there are, no more, no less.

And in EII, we have exactly two already.  Dooku and Sidious.

The Sith hate threesomes.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: dRaff on July 16, 2003, 12:58 PM
Ok, so I'm hearing some say Mace is a bad guy, with lots of good reasons. Others say no because there are already two Sith, no more, no less.

How about this: Mace, seeing the decay of the Republic and the corruption it brings, desperately wants a change. He knows the Jedi Order as a whole will not support the dismantling of the government, no matter how noble or necessary it is, so he takes it upon himself to save the order and the galaxy by aiding in the effort of the separatists, and therefore Dooku & Palpatine, who tell him they only want what he wants, which is order in the galaxy. So he provides the "cloudiness" of the force, the erasing of the databanks, etc.

Now I admit that Mace has to have some aggresiveness/power hunger/dark side in him to do all of this, but it doesn't mean he has to be a Sith, keeping to the two-only rule.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: dustrho on July 16, 2003, 02:48 PM
dRaff, first of all welcome to JediDefender!  Glad to have you here.  Make sure you introduce yourself in the Newbies (http://www.jedidefender.com/yabbse/index.php?board=29) section.

What you have said are great points about Mace Windu.  I think he's a huge part to the dismantling of the Republic.  I wouldn't doubt it that he had something to do with the deletion of records in the Jedi databanks.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Famine on August 3, 2003, 07:49 PM
I certainly recall some one, in an interveiw somewhere, that they were looking for another Sith...So, only two there are? Maybe not. Again, my memory is clouded....Must be Mace....

Kevin
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Dimetrodon on August 4, 2003, 01:34 AM
if they were looking for another... then its not mace...
because they already had him...
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Famine on August 4, 2003, 02:29 PM
if they were looking for another... then its not mace...
because they already had him...

Explain yourself...That made no sense to me...;)

Really, It didnt.

Kevin
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: MisterPL on August 4, 2003, 03:00 PM
For all you people arguing, "Always TWO there are..." Remember, just because Mace is EVIL doesn't make him a Sith.

He could just be disillusioned with Yoda's leadership. He's a keeper of the peace, yet can barely offer more than good advice when the Republic needs him most. If it weren't for Palpatine creating an army for the Jedi to lead, the Republic could have fallen to the Seperatists. I can see how he would be in league with Palpatine without necessarily realizing he was endangering the entire order. (Especially with his buddy Ki Adi using that mind whammy. ;))
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: urban fox on August 4, 2003, 04:29 PM
My moneys on Qui-gon.

He was defient of the council and did what he must/thought was right.
He was losing faith in the jedi order, if not he would not have been so difient.
He had access to the library and could have erased the files.
He thought he was investing in security for the future, not intentionally being evil, probably with Palpy's help.
The clones were ordered when he was alive and he died around the same time as the mystrerious Sifo-dyas, the one who ordered the clones.
He'll be in Ep3, perhaps to explain to Obi or Yoda what he'd done.
His mentor was in league with Palapy, perhaps introduced them.
Dooku says to Obi that he wishes that Qui-gon was there with him and that he'd help him, maybe that wasn't a lie.  Maybe he would have helped him.

I'm going to give Mace a break,  Qui-gon's my bad egg!!!!

Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Dimetrodon on August 4, 2003, 11:35 PM
My moneys on Qui-gon.

He was defient of the council and did what he must/thought was right.
He was losing faith in the jedi order, if not he would not have been so difient.
He had access to the library and could have erased the files.
He thought he was investing in security for the future, not intentionally being evil, probably with Palpy's help.
The clones were ordered when he was alive and he died around the same time as the mystrerious Sifo-dyas, the one who ordered the clones.
He'll be in Ep3, perhaps to explain to Obi or Yoda what he'd done.
His mentor was in league with Palapy, perhaps introduced them.
Dooku says to Obi that he wishes that Qui-gon was there with him and that he'd help him, maybe that wasn't a lie.  Maybe he would have helped him.

I'm going to give Mace a break,  Qui-gon's my bad egg!!!!



pretty damn convincing if u ask me, wow

dude, uget bonus points for that.

i think thats totally true.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Scott on September 26, 2003, 12:49 PM
- When things go down, Mace decides to go have a little chat with Palpatine.

I'm guessing Palpatine takes out Mace with his lightsaber in his office on Coruscant
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Darth Broem on September 29, 2003, 03:59 PM
Yeah, so do you think Palpatine will be dressed as the Chancellor or as Sidious/Emperor when he kills Mace?  
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: hannibalplan on October 22, 2003, 02:49 PM
Don't know who the "bad egg" will be, but with all the stupid hoopla over Lucas using Jamaican/Oriental accents in TPM, there is no way he's going to make the major black character in the prequels out to be a bad guy...just my opinion...
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Mister Skeezler on October 23, 2003, 10:42 AM
Don't know who the "bad egg" will be, but with all the stupid hoopla over Lucas using Jamaican/Oriental accents in TPM, there is no way he's going to make the major black character in the prequels out to be a bad guy...just my opinion...

I think you may be right. Didn't Lucas even get crap for making Lando "Untrustworthy"?
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Darth Broem on October 24, 2003, 03:50 PM
Oh yeah there was backlash about Lando when he first came out over that.  Also certain folks thought it was racist when Lando was not shown on the original theatre poster.  Of course neither was Yoda or Fett but you know where that went.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Morbius on February 19, 2004, 07:27 AM
                             I do think Mace Windu is the bad egg - I can't see it being By-Gone - sorry, Qui-Gon as his voice can be heard shouting 'Anakin, no!' after the Tusken massacre and Jocasta Nu is just TOO obvious...besides, after Jango is beheaded there seems to be some communication between Mace and Dooku and this ties in with the look on Obi-Wan's face in Star Wars when he sees R2 and tells Luke Darth Vader killed Anakin . Unlike Mace Windu Obi-Wan isn't a good liar methinks...
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Darth Moribund on March 6, 2004, 12:13 AM
  everything here has opened my eyes to Mace being between the Jedi and Sith. unbelievable observations. i think tho that Anakin will cut him down. remember the look that Anakin gave Mace when he said that he will not be trained in EPI. in all these talks here on this site or anysite, anything is up in the air

" Feel. Don't think. Use your instincts."  
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: JediMAC on March 11, 2005, 08:02 PM
Maybe it's a good time to bump this oldie but goodie back up.  As inspiring and convincing as John's theories a couple years ago were, it looks like it ain't gonna happen.  Mace seems to be on the straight and narrow, after all.  I'm almost a little bit bummed, since that would've been an interesting twist.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Famine on March 13, 2005, 12:22 AM
I think there may be a slight chance he could be right. In the trailer he's so negative about putting a rookie Jedi on the job of Sidious-sitting, because maybe he is afraid that if Palps reveals it to him, he could rat him out. It could also explain Palps cutting up some fools, especialy Master Windu.

Who knows!

Kevin
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Scott on March 14, 2005, 10:09 AM
I want to know what Mace does to Palpy to make his face change?
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Scott on May 20, 2005, 10:23 AM
I can honestly say that Mace Windu is very much a bad egg.  His character came across as an ass almost to the point that you can almost see why Anakin did what he did :-\
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: John C on May 20, 2005, 11:59 AM
Yeah, I almost wish Sam Jackson wasn't even in the movie.  I never cared for his character.  Mace blew big time. 
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Famine on May 20, 2005, 12:56 PM
Indeed. He came off as really really mean. I was in love the second Palpidious screamed "POWER!!! ABSOLUTE POWER!" (or whatnot) and sent him sailing.

That's hot.

Kevin
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: JayDouble on May 20, 2005, 01:03 PM
I guess I'm in the minority here I like Mace and what he did.  

In the book he doesn't come of as being Anakin's antagonizer but a bad ass.  I don't think he was working for the Sith at all.

In the book Mace uses Vaapad to own Palpatine.  He basically channels himself in it to own Palpatine.

The book gives a different description of the Yoda vs Emperor match.  The movies doesn't convey the thought of Yoda at all.  The big one for me is when Yoda realizes for the past thousand years since the last fight with the Sith that the training for the Jedi is all wrong.  He realizes that the way there training the Jedi is good for fighting the Stih a thousand years ago but not now.  The Sith have changed and adapted to other ways to use the Force preparing for this moment.  

I see Mace as the only one who's wasn't clouded and thus the discovery of Vaapad.  He was the only Jedi to evolve and prepare for this day.  You may wonder why he didn't share his knowledge with the Jedi.  It was to dangerous.  He shared it with Sora, and Sora wasn't able to channel it properly an turned to the dark side.

Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Famine on May 20, 2005, 01:04 PM
What the frig is Vappad?

Kevin
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: JayDouble on May 20, 2005, 01:08 PM
What the frig is Vappad?

Kevin

Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see.

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side.

Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master.

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It in a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Had the novel handy.   :P
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Famine on May 20, 2005, 01:27 PM
I understand. Is it possible to learn this power?

Kevin
Title: Mace Windu
Post by: saga_de_geminis on May 20, 2005, 01:36 PM
Hi, It's the first time I visit this forum, And I want to comment something about the scene when, Master Windu Dies, I hate that momment, I would like to know what do u thing about that
Title: Re: Mace Windu
Post by: Darth Broem on May 20, 2005, 02:56 PM
I liked him getting his arm hacked off.  I liked him getting electrocuted and tossed halfway across the city :) 
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Angry Ewok on May 20, 2005, 03:27 PM
The only lame thing about Windu's death was him shreeking, "Aaaaaahh - He's the traitor!"... it sounded really forced. But I'm crazy.

Users of Vaapad:
Mace Windu (creator)
Sora Bulq (joined the Dark Side)
Depa Billaba (Windu's apprentice - joined the Dark Side)
Quinlan Vos (taught by Sora Bulq)
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Chris on May 20, 2005, 07:24 PM
I've always thought Mace was a great character. Anakin got what he deserved from Mace. Anakin was an overzealous punk who thought he was the **** and that he could bypass all of the structure that the Jedi had. Mace is the only one who really told him his place. Anakin was very sneaky and Mace knew this from the start and rightfully so, did not trust him. Every time Anakin didn't get what he wanted to would complain and pout. I believe Mace tried to humble him, but to no avail.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: DoctorPadawan on May 20, 2005, 07:36 PM
This is just an amusing aside that popped into my head when I was watching television this evening (they were showing a clip of Palpatine firing the lightning at Mace at the time).  Back around 1996 or so, Sam Jackson did an interview with Playboy (insert obligatory "I read it for the articles" joke here) where he mentioned one of his favorite movies, long before he was cast in the remake/updating, was "Shaft."  He said that while shooting the third "Die Hard" movie, he, Bruce Willis and some of the crew would recite their favorite lines from "Shaft."  And what was the quote that Sam Jackson said in that article?:

"They threw my man Leroy out the goddamned window.  That's some cold ****, Shaft!"

Kind of prophetic, isn't it?  ;D

PS-He's a complicated man, and no one understands him but his woman.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Mr.MojoRisin on May 20, 2005, 07:46 PM
Mace was Shaft.  A Bad MotherF****r.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Darby on May 20, 2005, 09:47 PM
Didn't Tony Rocky Horror get thrown out a window too?   ;)
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: DoctorPadawan on May 21, 2005, 12:31 PM
Quote
Mace was Shaft.  A Bad MotherF****r.

Shut your mouth!  But I know you're just talking about Shaft, so I can dig it.  ;)

Quote
Didn't Tony Rocky Horror get thrown out a window too?

Yeah, but only Marcellus and Tony know why, although I heard that it had something to do with him giving Mia a foot massage.

And lest we forget that Mace Windu is the foot ******* master.  :)
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Darth Paul on May 22, 2005, 09:28 AM
I know he begged George to be in the movies, but Sam the Man as a Jedi is one of the worst mis-castings in cinematic history.  His performance in all 3 prequels is awful, I was glad to see him die in ROTS.
And this is coming from a Sam fan,  one of my favourite actors in other movies.  He just wasn't a Jedi.  Maybe should have played Jango or something...
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Darby on May 22, 2005, 02:32 PM
I have to disagree.  It wasn't his greatest performance, but the same can be said of many other exceptional actors in the PT.  I like Mace just fine.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Jesse James on May 23, 2005, 12:33 AM
I tend to like mace in the movies too...  He's almost cold/emotionless to me which I think's more intentional than an acting flaw.  I can handle the scream during the fall in E3 too...  Luke was whining like a bitch in ROTJ when he got lightningninged, so I'm just wagering it hurts mighty bad (even for a Master). 

Luke looked like he was passing a kidney stone actually.  Curled on the floor and begging for help.

I liked his death overall...  I just got back from my 3rd time at this movie and it's actually even better to me really.  My buddies went with me this time, and they're the "non-fan" fans who want to see every movie but don't do the whole collecting thing or premieres or whatever...  They usually are also the most critical of the films out of the distinctly separate groups of friends I have, and actually had no major gripe at all.

One cited a "plot hole" but I debunked it slightly with a potential excuse.  Doubt he buys the excuse, but it works for me to disregard it as a plot hole at all.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: SilverZ on May 23, 2005, 12:49 AM
I like the Mace character.

I think that Sam Jackson as Mace makes an excellent presence in the PT. He looks like a commanding Jedi Master. Also, as he's the only one apparently one hundred percent clued into Anakin's number, he's a standout. When he died, he certainly didn't go out like a punk. So as a minor character I think he works quite well.

The problem seems to be with the horribly stilted dialog that is a complete mismatch to Jackson. Every time he's saddled with those lumbering lines, it's painful to watch and hear, and nearly pulls me out of the movie. It just further illustrates that Lucas isn't one for crafting lines to match his performers, which is too bad.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: knashdx on May 24, 2005, 11:14 AM
What are all 7 different forms of lightsaber fighting? I thought that they were covered in an issue of the Insider, but I can't find it anywhere.
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Jedi Idej on May 24, 2005, 02:25 PM
Jackson's delivery in ROTS is good; not so in TPM or AOTC. Morgan Freeman has more range and would have said his lines better and still have been convincing as a skeptical Jedi badass.
Title: Re: Mace Windu
Post by: Rob on May 24, 2005, 04:37 PM
Hi, It's the first time I visit this forum, And I want to comment something about the scene when, Master Windu Dies, I hate that momment, I would like to know what do u thing about that

My favorite moment of the entire film.  It was an exact parallel of the end of ROTJ.

You can now imagine that during Return of the Jedi while Luke is being shocked, Vader is imagining that moment with Windu and thinking "I already screwed this up once, now's my chance to get it right."

My other favorite moment of the movie was when Obi Wan told Padme he was "so sorry" about Anakin being the father as he storms out of the room.

Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Scott on May 24, 2005, 04:39 PM
I didn't even think about the Vader/Luke Anakin/Mace parallel, I thought that scene was great, really great except for Palpatine's voice
Title: Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
Post by: Famine on May 24, 2005, 05:02 PM
To me it seemed like the Dark Side was speaking through him, naming him Darth Vader.

Kevin