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Multimedia => Star Wars Universe => Topic started by: Reid on October 12, 2005, 06:50 PM
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I was wondering, when do the Empire change their eqiupment between E3 and E4? Basicley from the ROTS Imperial Stormie armor, officer and tech uniforms, weapons, pilots, etc etc, to the Imperial gear seen in the OT and all EU after it? Is there currently a comic or book on this out?
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Nothing yet, no, but this will probably be explored in several upcoming books which will venture into the "Dark Times" era as it's becoming known.
I imagine various things were phased in at different times, and probably there was a long period in between when both kinds were in use simultaneously. I doubt Palpatine got up one day and decreed "Thou shalt all switch over to new gear and vehicles today". ;) If it isn't broke, don't fix it, so I don't envision all the ROTS tech being suddenly retired, but simply allowed to wear out/get destroyed and then be replaced with the OT-style tech.
For example, a slightly more primitive AT-AT is already in use during the Clone Wars. And the Imperial officer depicted in the ROTS Visual Dictionary is about 90% similar to the classic uniforms, with small differences in the rank insignia and an additional seam across the chest.
A few bits I do know:
In the Palpatine Inaugural edition of HoloNet News in Insider #84, a clone/stormie is depicted in the ROTS style armor (but then, this is immediately after ROTS so that'd be pretty obvious).
In a Jedi Purge story in Tales, we see Vader with a bunch of stormies in the classic OT armor. Of course, this was printed before anyone knew what the ROTS armor would look like, and this may have even predated AOTC (I don't own a copy so I can't check). This is supposedly the last bunch of Padawans in the Republic/Empire (or so our hero believes, at any rate, giving us a possible loophole) so it's likely within a couple of years after ROTS, at most.
Not much to go on, I know.
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Thanks for the info. :)
I doubt Palpatine got up one day and decreed "Thou shalt all switch over to new gear and vehicles today". ;)
Crap, this is exactley what I thought would have happend. :P
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Well I figure it took place after oh, 10 years?
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Some things of note... At the end of ROTS, Tarkin's uniform isn't far off from Classic Trilogy Imperial... It's my belief that the Republic Military dress changed during the Clone Wars from the Blue Tunic/Slacks to the Imperial Colors, but I also am a big fan of the notion that there's more to the Republic military than Clones... A LOT more.
As far as gear, the fighters seemingly take a big change at some point, but EU's shown an early AT-AT in use in the Clone Wars, and AT-ST (and other walkers in their class) in use in the Clone Wars as well... Then other EU shows AT-TE's and other CW era vehicles in use during the Imperial era... I think the "change" isn't real obvious, at least not anywhere but with fighters where maybe technology is advancing quicker within the arms race?
I figure Stormtrooper armor becomes a standard at a point where the Emperor wants a more structured, and unified military with less individualistic ideals... I figure the Individuality was something Jedi instilled in their Clones through some odd sentimentality or some subdued attachment, and the Emperor wants to wash that away with "new standards". This could tie to ideals of the "New Order", "The Tarkin Doctrine", and other structural foundations of the Empire.
Just some random thoughts... There is some cross-over being shown though where some technology is still gladly used, some changes slightly, and some more seems to change greatly like fighters where they go from a very unique design with the V-Wing to the "TIE" class of fighters... Seemingly abandoning the other classes for the most part after the X-Wing is lost to the Alliance early on.
Interesting thing to watch though I believe.
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If you read Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, they mention that new ships were being built as well as new fighters and the clones were being referred to as Stormtroopers almost immediately.
I'm sure not everything changed over night, but there were definite improvements made in military hardware if just for the necessity of keeping all the star systems in line while Palpatine consolidated his power.
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Another possible reason to revamp the military is to wash away all the 'taint' of the jedi. They lead all these special groups of clones and are completely associated with all things that are the republic military. Palpatine wants to erase the jedi from history, revamping the military is a good place to start that.
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Yeah thats true.
Then there is also the fact that with a growing military they would need mass produced armor.
The Stormtrooper armor was not nearly as well crafted as the clone trooper armor.
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Is there some story that details that Stormtrooper armor was lower quality than clone?
Sure seems like there are a lot of Clones
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I've never heard of any source implying that the Empire went cheap on armor after the Clone Wars....
I doubt the difference in quality of armor between Clones and Stormtroopers is very significant... In fact, the Stormtroopers' armor was probably slightly improved on from the armor used decades beforehand. Lighter, possibly more durable.
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I finally found an answer! If you've played Battlefront 2, in one of the levels as the stormtroopers it says that battle occured 7 years after the clone wars. So I'm guessing 5 years after the clone wars the Empire changed their gear.
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ehhh battlefront 2 isn't really the most 'cannon' EU out there :-\
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The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology does say that Clone Armor is superior to Storm Armor, but that the Stormies have better gear.
So cheaper on saving the trooper's life, but more on controling and communicating with them. That does mesh with the Empire's view on things.
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Well think about it, the empire after the clone wars had barely any opposition and so with the new armor for all the new recruits and clones from different templates they would try and get a cheaper more mass produced armor but yet get a bit more advanced weapons so incase they was an insurgency they would be able to quel it with superior fire power and an overpowering amount of troopers.
This is probably why they have a tad less efficient armor than the original clone troopers nearly a decade or more before them.
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It made sense to me. =)
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Hurray, its a shame the empire didnt just stick with the phase 2 armor...say...wouldnt phase 3 armor be stormtrooper armor? :P
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ehhh battlefront 2 isn't really the most 'cannon' EU out there :-\
It's canon, not cannon & the story of BF II is considered pretty canon. The rest is non-canon.
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Well BF 2 isnt too great, I mean its a really fun game but think about it, the clones would all be dead due to aging twice as fast as normal and parts of the game didnt make too much sense and it is all not "Cannon".
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ehhh battlefront 2 isn't really the most 'cannon' EU out there :-\
It's canon, not cannon & the story of BF II is considered pretty canon. The rest is non-canon.
The story of BF2 isn't canon at all I'm afraid... If it's something directly from the films though of course it is, but if it's not in the films it's only a part of the EU is all.
That's not to say BF2 doesn't fit in well enough or whatnot... To each their own on that, but BF2 (and BF) both introduce a lot of non-film elements that aren't canon... Pretty much everything about them really.
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ehhh battlefront 2 isn't really the most 'cannon' EU out there :-\
It's canon, not cannon & the story of BF II is considered pretty canon. The rest is non-canon.
Wait...what? Are you actually saying there's a shred of truth to the 501st fighting in every major battle in SW history?
No. I thought not.
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Well, the 501st storyline doesnt make sense...at least storyline wise...
Their armor was as I like to think changed after 10 years, at least over the decade with a few changes mixed in the improve the armor a bit by bit before being completed and mass produced cheaper.
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...the story of BF II is considered pretty canon.
People have tried to bash this into your brain many times before... and god damnit, you're wrong. BFII is in no shape or form canon.
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No, but regardless people find it hard to not call it canon because they love the game and consider it canon. At least to themselves.
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The game wasn't even that good.
[rant] After killing 500+ droids on the Tantive without dying once I realized there were better things out there. And surprise, when I went back to DOD (a Half-Life Mod) I found that playing against AI really doesn't help you develop as a gamer. If that's how you judge games, I hope you agree that BFII wasn't so great at all and therefore isn't "canon". [/rant]
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A game's greatness means nothing for its "canon" either though, of course... I love X-Wing: Alliance, it's a fantastic (if unfinished) story that fits flawless into the story of Star Wars but it's not canon...
The things in BF that I always disliked and made me look "down" on it as far as "canon" goes are the things like armor not changing for troopers and things, the way armor is different for a heavy trooper but he isn't the trooper appropriate to that legion, etc... Just weird stuff.
I dig some stuff about the games, I can see things loosely fitting into continuity, but the way the game plays kills a lot of it. THe story is weak too, the game isn't story-centric as much as it's just a "plug through this map, then plug through that one" game format. It's not like, say, X-Wing: Alliance where your earlier mission builds into your next, cut-scenes carry the story along further, training plays a factor, etc., etc., etc...
BFI or II are both ok for what they are but their various "elements" are things I pick and choose how they fit into the SW universe... Like I dig the Tat. Skiff being used as an infantry vehicle, like it's something common on planets around the galaxy, but there are things like the armor issues and whatnot that retard the game and its believabiliyt overall whereas other games like Dark Forces fit into the SW universe flawlessly really.
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I still think that after about 10 years the empire would have changed the armor due to the new recruits and the original armor being too expensive to make.
So they would have created a new kind of armor, a cheaper, lighter type.
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I can see armor changing, no doubt... progress and all despite the universe being kind of "static".
The issue of it "costing too much" though is bullox, as they say... We're talking about a government that spans "a million million worlds" and things. I think cost is a factor, but something like trooper armor isn't going to be effected.
I'm also not sure I'm into the whole thing on Clone armor being better and whatnot... That's just people trying to say ST's are "worse" than CT's... Which I've never liked because the films really don't fairly display that idea one way or the other. Afterall we rarely see them in true combat, just against the heroes of a story... It all gets just mixed up and silly to me how people have to say "Clones are superior than what we see in ANH-ROTJ" and things. I don't believe them to be better, nor worse. That's me though.
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I'm just going with what's in the Guide to weapos and tech. My heart is always for the better looking OT troopers though. =)
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Well, I guess in clones to stormies its personal preference.
I'm a clone man myself but the stormies are very cool and I am a bit mad that I hadnt seen more imps before when the potf2 stormie had finally been replaced by the newer ones...even so this isnt a collecting discussion so back on topic.
I think that they would have changed it in the middle with maybe a few changes along the way.
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I'd say the change was almost immediately after Sith. By Sith the armor was already shifting towards the stormtrooper version. All the customized units were all known for who lead them, jedi, and the Emperor wants that all wiped away.
Order 66 goes out, then all the paint jobs are revoked and the customized units are paired down to the bare min. Snow, sand, commando, water, space, normal.
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I wouldn't call any of the OT era troopers part of a 'customized unit'... Snowtroopers and Sandtroopers are still just your average grunt of a Stormtrooper. I'm sure each Star Destroyer has an armory with a range of armor depending on the environment their ground force is more likely to have to patrol in it's responsibilities, but that's it... there isn't a separate barrack for "snow experts" and another for "good swimmers" waiting around. The Commanding Officer probably just says, "For this terrain, we'll be using our Class X uniforms."
The Clone Wars era and the Galactic Civil War era is apples and oranges, really. The reason there were specialized units for the Clone Wars is because the Republic forces were completely mobilized, being constantly transferred to different theatres where they would make the best desired impact. The Grand Army went from blitzing through a uniformed enemy to dealing with spies and terrorists. In the Civil War setting, all of those 'custom troops' are useless... The gears of war have changed and there is no frontline to send specialists around...
My guess is that the non-specific units that made a name for themselves during the war were made honorary color guards of sorts aboard Star Destroyers, given a "Home Base" to continue the name. Specialists like ARC troops and the like were probably made Drill Instructors and whatever the Imperial equivalent to a Basic Training Officer would be... The rest of the Grand Army was likely dissolved and redistributed to strengthen the galaxy. We know that at some point, the Galaxy was sectioned off and bases and garrisons were put in place. My guess is that these garrisons were originally manned by Clone War veterans, where locals were gradually accepted into position.
But the original question was 'When did the Empire change the equipment'... I'd say it was a gradual change as technology improved around field experience. From AOTC to ROTS we can already spot alot of changes that have been made in the trooper armor.
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Agreed on the "specialized units" bit there Brad... I've always loathed the term "Snowtrooper", or "Sandtrooper"... The U.S. Army isn't formulating squads of troops specially trained to fight in the sand... It's impractical.
I think what you see with the "Sandtrooper" is that the term's fabricated in EU ignorance. Sandtroopers are merely Stormtroopers in their field gear. Shoulder pauldrons are used to denote a general idea of rank structure for civilians as well as the troops themselves during combat conditions (things in war get hectic, so seeing who is who can be important). The downfall of this though is the same as the downfall of all singling of Officers and higher-ups in history... They become targets. The British officers on horseback in the F&I or Revolution, the Officers targeted by snipers in WW2, WW1, Vietnam, Korea, etc... In the vain Empire though it definitely falls into place I think...
The "Snowtrooper" is to me the same idea really then... To me, they aren't Snowtroopers, but rather they're regular Stormtroopers in cold weather equipment. More flexible armor/uniforms for the terrain, heating gear, thermal stuff... It's like saying the US sent "Cold Weather Soldiers" to defend Bastogne instead of just throwing trench coats and Mackinaws on the 101st Airborne and others, and throwing them out in the field.
Now, that's not to say I don't believe in specialized groups for the Empire... I think they'd employ special forces units for certain, train them, etc., but what are the odds a Destroyer keeps a garrison of Troops on board for every environment? Not likely, even with the grandeur of the Empire and what they are capable of. Instead, the troops dress to match the environment...
Specialized units as I see them include:
-Storm Commandoes
-Blackhole Stormtroopers
-Scout Troopers (Not special forces per se, but trained separately of regular infantry and tasked with specific duties separate of the basic infantryman)
-"Airborne" units (requires a special training, but they'd still be merely a step above a basic infantry unit, and really it's feasible to assume all Stormtroopers get some "airborne" training and that "airborne" units don't even exist really)
The other group I'd consider CLOSE to Snowtroopers (and likely looking just like them) would be some kind of special Mountain/Arctic Trooper trained specifically for the environment... But again, do all Destroyers (Executor included) have a legion of these guys aboard? Highly unlikely. Instead they're likely trained and kept in reserve or immediately placed on planets the Empire holds that require their services. These troopers though would be additionally equipped for the perils of polar regions on planets like we see here, or high altitude mountains and things.
I don't see the Executor just happening to have a pile of these guys aboard ship though, much less a full group to storm a well manned rebel base... That just makes no sense. They're out hunting the rebels, they have no "plan" or assumed location to base who they need to bring along, so they're just going to have the troops they think they can apply to any situation.
Sandies though have always been a comical group to me. Their packs alone suggest to me a modular design built to be customized for the trooper's need. Special gear for goign into a forest, a swamp, a volcanic/lava planet, a jungle, a desert as we saw, a cityscape, ship board/capture operations, siege operations, etc., etc... They're your joe soldier with all the gear he needs for any planet he may be dropped on. For the deep cold, a new uniform is in his closet ready to roll.