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Multimedia => The Original Trilogy => Topic started by: Paul on May 11, 2012, 04:11 PM
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Where did they end up? Without getting too deep into EU?
I was watching Star Wars and was thinking, why not let them out if they are on the Death Star. Once your cover is blown why not?
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I think it was pretty telling what was going to happen to the crew when Vader told that guy to send a distress signal and then inform the senate that all aboard were killed. ;)
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Well informing the senate they were killed isn't the same as killing them.
Surely they wanted to interrogate them. How many floating doctor/interrogation droids are there?
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Dewback kibbles and bits...
I don't think the grunts were going to know much- it's not their job, and would be a liability. Vader, Tarkin, and the Emperor don't seem like a trio likely to bother with running prisons, especially when the people in it are officially "dead" in the senate records.
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I guess I never got that they were executed by Vader saying, inform the Senate all aboard were killed... I thought it was a ploy to get at Rebel sympathizers or destroy hope since Leia was 'killed' too. But it makes sense that they offed them.
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There are prison worlds in some of the EU stories. As I recall, the people they found on those prison worlds were thought dead by the general public because the Empire didn't want anyone looking for them. Considering the vast amount of food, fuel, and raw materials the Empire needed for their war machine, that explanation kind of makes sense and would be a likely outcome for the rest of the crew. That said, there weren't all that many survivors - might be just as easy to feed 'em to the Dewbacks.
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I'm guessing dead since they probably wouldn't want any witnesses to that incident. There seemed to be some bickering that indicated Leia could make an argument and someone would defend her.
The OT, especially ANH era, really seemed to have a much more complex political system to it than simply, "The EMpire ruled everything and that was that".
Vader seemed like he was doing some kind of CIA cover-up with the whole thing...
It's funny how the mystery of the OT political system is so much more interesting than the crammed-down-your-throat political system of the PT. ANH hints at a lot of complexities... T he Imperial Senate seemed to still clearly have power over Palpatine that he couldn't just up and tell to piss off. The "beaucracy" kept the galaxy in order, not Palps... Interesting really, but you didn't have to have 50% of any of the films show you this in action for you to get it. Just a couple dialogue lines set that up.
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I just took it that the Empire had some concern about pushing people towards the rebellion. If they continued to give some power to the senate, that might be enough to appease a fair amount of the galaxy's citizens. Disbanding the senate was likely to drive these systems to rebel - why continue to give their support, materials, money etc. to the Empire if their people have no say? The meeting on the DS seemed to indicate some concern for this - how will the Empire maintain control without the bureaucracy? Regional governors would be needed to oversee and keep them in line. Even with all that firepower they were fearful of uprisings and felt they needed the Death Star to prevent retaliation. I never really thought much about that as a kid, but there were countless planets with billions and billions of people on each. It wouldn't take more than a handful of dedicated planets to put up one hell of a fight if you could get them organized and mobilized. That's pretty much how it went down too, with the Dresselians, Calmari, Bothans, Wookies, etc. joining up to defeat the Empire.
I also think the Emperor probably foresaw potential futures where the rebels were successful, so he probably initially did all he could to make sure they didn't get any added support or grow too big. By ANH, he's either confident enough in the Empire's military, especially with the death star backing it, or he's just tired of placating others.
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Speaking of the crew, what do you guys think of the droids seen leaving the ship with the crew? Rebel comrades of R2-D2, or Imperial droids brought on board to search the ship's computers?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/dlloydbass/r2-q2.jpg)
Traditionally they have been called Imperial droids, but I always thought it was noteworthy that it looked liked they were being escorted under guard like the crew. Stormies left first, then the droids, then the crew, then more stormies. It also seems likely that the Tantive IV would have had more than just one R2 unit, like how the Naboo Cruiser had 6 droids. We also didn't really see what happened with the other 3P0 unit from the start of the attack.
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For those of you that think the Rebels were executed, why do you think they were taken prisoner at all? Why not just blow them away up front? If they're going to be questioned then killed, why allow yourself to be captured knowing that this is how the Empire handles things? Surely word of how they handle these situations has gotten around...
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I don't think it's how they always handle things... I think it's how they're handling it with Leia's crew due to the sensitive info... Find out what they know, or don't, and off them to be sure, say it was an accident... no fuss no muss.
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I don't think it's how they always handle things... I think it's how they're handling it with Leia's crew due to the sensitive info... Find out what they know, or don't, and off them to be sure, say it was an accident... no fuss no muss.
Well, there's no way any of them memorized the schematics or likely even had time to look at them, let alone figure out a weakness. Why not just send them off to whatever secret labor camps they have if that's the typical M.O.? I guess it's a moot point since it's never covered and didn't really happen. I just don't buy storylines where bad guys go to the trouble of taking someone prisoner just to go kill their prisoners somewhere else.
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Were the guys being taking prisoner before or after the decision was made to kill them? I don't remember when the Vader scene was in relation to the prisoner scene.
Along those lines, maybe it was just the regular Imperial commander rounding up everyone before he knew/heard/was ordered that everyone was to be killed.
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I think rounding up the crew falls under the "tear this ship apart" area. It would make sense to lock up and search all of the people on board to make sure no one was holding the plans before they were killed. I doubt very much there were survivors.
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Well, there's no way any of them memorized the schematics or likely even had time to look at them, let alone figure out a weakness. Why not just send them off to whatever secret labor camps they have if that's the typical M.O.? I guess it's a moot point since it's never covered and didn't really happen. I just don't buy storylines where bad guys go to the trouble of taking someone prisoner just to go kill their prisoners somewhere else.
I don't think anyone memorized them either, but why chance that? You've sent Vader out to get them, personally, so I would think that alone is testament to how important the mission is... Being thorough is probably a good assumption then.
I think it could be very likely the droids are Rebels by the way, also being taken away to be "interrogated". Or scanned. Or whatever droids get.
As far as having time to look at them though, I've not really seen anything indicating that one way or the other. It could've been a very short period of time, or the pursuit could've taken quite a while with maybe different hyper jumps and the Destroyer only catches up to them in the Tatooine system. I know one source indicates the plans are picked up by a Rebel listening post that sort of examines them and sends them off quickly to the Tantive IV, and a pursuit is on from there then, but that it didn't seem to be an immediate thing where the Tantive IV themselves steal the plans from the Empire... Someone else gets them and transmits them. Who knows though, that's probably got 3 completely different stories to it. :)
It just seems most logical to me that the crew's taken, interrogated, and killed with a "cover-up" excuse so it looks like an accident... Plus killed so they don't ever possibly expose what happened. But also, interrogated because they may reveal other information too, that the Empire wants, beyond the DS's plans. They're still looking for the base and all.
But mostly to me, it goes to the idea that the galaxy's government at that time is more complex than simply Palpatine ruling everything and nobody having a say... They were covering it up for a reason. Leaving anything to chance seems sloppy on Vader's part who strikes me as simply a thorough guy.
Then again, this is the same organization that refuses to react as even a precautionary move when it's revealed that the Rebels have found something vulnerable, and are attempting to attack that something. :)
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It just seems most logical to me that the crew's taken, interrogated, and killed with a "cover-up" excuse so it looks like an accident... Plus killed so they don't ever possibly expose what happened. But also, interrogated because they may reveal other information too, that the Empire wants, beyond the DS's plans. They're still looking for the base and all.
I agree. I imagine it went the way Antilles did. Tell me what you know. No answer about the stolen plans or secret rebel organization? Force choke and dead. No dicking around. Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway...
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Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway...
Really? Princess Leia? Han/Leia/Chewie? Luke? He's personally taken a prisoner in every movie of the OTC.
Outside of battle, I think Antilles is the only good guy he's killed in cold blood (on screen anyway).
Star Wars Prison Planets: Despayre, Stars' End, Kessel to name a few. Despayre was used to construct the first death star, and they lost that work force, despite immense labor needed for the second death star. Tycho, Corran, and Wedge all escaped from Imperial prisons at some point.
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Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway...
Really? Princess Leia? Han/Leia/Chewie? Luke? He's personally taken a prisoner in every movie of the OTC.
They were part of Vader's plan to lure Luke to the dark side.
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Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway...
Really? Princess Leia? Han/Leia/Chewie? Luke? He's personally taken a prisoner in every movie of the OTC.
::)
Yes, I suppose he did. Perhaps I should have said:
Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway... unless they are main characters vital to the overall story. :P
Anyway, I always thought Vader had them all killed. I went back tonight and grabbed the novelization...
As the officer and troops departed, Vader turned his gaze back to the Commander. "Vaporize this fighter - we don't want to leave anything."
I guess I always just assumed that meant the crew too... ;)
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They were part of Vader's plan to lure Luke to the dark side.
Ha! Thanks for the tip, Steve. Even going back to Empire, Vader could have killed off Chewie to really get Luke's goat, right? Or he could have offed Lando once he had the others captured, right? It even takes an order from Tarkin to schedule Leia's death - that's not Vader's suggestion. I'm not saying he's a nice guy or above killing people when it suits him, but he doesn't seem like a guy that just walks around killing guys because he can. Yeah, I get that they wanted things kept quiet, but it seems like shipping these guys off to some inescapable prison planet/work camp would have the same desired effect.
In one of the novels (Death Star I think), some of the prisoners encountered are people the Empire falsely listed as having died. Based on that, I took it as a relatively common practice that the Empire rounded up prisoners and sent them off to work camps where they were never heard from again. I prefer to think those guys are still slaving away somewhere remote working on the third Death Star. ;)
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I guess I don't look at the SW galaxy having prisons as really pertaining at all to why the Tantive IV crew is not taken prisoner...
I think the Empire has many prison "camps" or planets. I envision them having camps strictly for forced labor, like Kessel... I envision them having "re-education" camps... I envision them having even regular POW camps, though forced labor and other stuff could apply to all those too. And even special maximum secuirty camps on desolate worlds that only house a handful of prisoners because of their importance. Maybe earlier on in the Empire there are camps specialized for Jedi even, since it's proven that Jedi can be captured and kept prisoner like anyone else, it just takes a little extra care and technology.
I just think the Tantive IV crew is killed because they get asked questions, they reveal nothing (or maybe they reveal some stuff, whatever), and since this is a bit of a diplomatic faux pas, as well as a severe breach of sensitive materials, it's best wiped up without any chance of it going public.
If anything I think it was made pretty clear that Leia herself, the most important person aboard the ship, was going to be the last bit of mopping up if she didn't reveal anything they wanted.
I'm totally cool with the SW notion of prisons though. They're really kind of a cool concept... There's a great prison level in Bounty Hunter that is maybe one of the more fun parts of the game. Total blast causing a massive riot just to cover your own tracks. :)
On the idea of Vader randomly offing people, I agree, but disagree... I think he's totally capable of it. I think Vader's ordered by Tarkin to kill Leia because that's Tarkin's call ultimately, not his. Tarkin's not involved in the overtaking of the Tantive IV though, as far as we know. As far as we know, he's far away on the Death Star, and Vader's in command of the mission to take the Tantive IV and deal with it.
Not saying he kills everyone... I can imagine he doesn't kill many people. I can also imagine he slaughters quite a few, with neither happiness nor sadness. He just does what has to be done.
Like say it was Vader's ship capturing a Rebel ship escaping Hoth... I can see them doing a quick interrogation, determining who is and isn't important aboard the ship (to move the important ones on for further interrogation), and the rest who gave up (assuming those who resisted to the last are all dead) are shipped off to a penal camp of one type or another... and at the same time I could see Vader slaughtering the ship depending on how badly it pissed him off.
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I guess we all have our own takes on Vader. I totally agree that he's capable of killing the crew (or anyone) and he could have very well done so.
That said, I've kind of seen him in a new light since the prequels. If you watch the OTC closely, he has no problem killing his own men left and right. Say the wrong thing? Come out of Hyperspace early? Let the Falcon escape? It's force choke and so long to you. I think that's probably equal parts motivation for the survivors to work their butts off and anger at the empire that he's become a part of. Anakin did everything he could to save his men during the clone wars, but Vader seems to relish killing them off for the simplest of reasons.
I Brought it up earlier, but why not kill some of the heroes? There's no need to keep Lando around, especially after he yells at Vader about taking the prisoners with him. Why not just force choke and kill him? Why keep Chewie around once he's frozen Han and still has Leia as bait if needed? Chewie's clearly a threat on the Carbonite platform...another opportunity for a force choke that Vader passes on. Why? I get they're core characters that Lucas wanted to keep around, but was there something more to it?
Personally, I think Vader/Anakin is still a good guy deep down. We see his redemption at the end of Jedi, but I never carded much for the "Good guy turns complete evil then turns back to good" notion of things. I think he's a good guy who has done terrible things that he feels are justified for one reason or another. He's got to play the part of a bad guy because that's his lot, but some part of him still wants to be good. It's that potentially self concious good side that prevents him from offing the good guys.
If you can see that angle of things and mix it in with Anakin's respect for front line troops, you'll see why I think he didn't kill off the rest of the crew. Kill the captain, sure? Maybe out of anger or another opportunity to strike fear in your troops? Sure. But there's really no reason to kill the rest of the crew and for me it just makes more sense that he'd send them off to prison instead.
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But there IS a reason. :)
They know of the plans, and the Death Star... They know that the Empire has done something clearly "against the rules" that requires a cover-up of some sort to keep it from going public.
Why keep them around and risk that? That's a very good reason I think, to a thorough guy like Vader looking to please his master.
I see what you're saying, and I agree on Chewbacca (though some have speculated he keeps Chewie around because he has 3PO on his back and he has some level of sentimentality for his old droid, and doesn't want Fett accidentally killing him). I think you can chalk that up to the main character angle and all that too though. At the same time I don't think he kills everyone either. I just DO think he had the entire Tantive IV crew wiped out because they had seen too much.
I see what you're saying about Vader and the concepts of redemption and all though, and to a degree I agree with that.
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Perhaps Vader is hoping Luke doesn't have the guidance to know that Vader is the one causing his friends pain. Remember, he is using them to lure Luke in, and of course he'd keep them alive until Luke is in his clutches. What if he hears Luke is coming in, he kills the others rebels, and Luke decides to turn around and leave? Vader would have wasted a resource that was proven to have drawn Luke in. Vader doesn't know that Yoda is alive and is training Luke to be a Jedi. Maybe he assumes that Luke will just respond to his feelings. You don't pull away the bait until the fish is snared.
Also, once Vader has his moment with Luke on the gantry, he does not kill a single person after. He doesn't murder Piett after the Falcon escapes, he doesn't do anything to Jerjerrod, and they even cut out a scene where he attacks one of Palpatine's security officers. I think his confrontation with Luke changed him.
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They know of the plans, and the Death Star... They know that the Empire has done something clearly "against the rules" that requires a cover-up of some sort to keep it from going public.
I'd argue that people already know that...that's why there is a rebellion. It's not like the Empire fears anyone going public with the information. They use the Death Star shortly after this to very publicly show everyone how powerful they are. Besides, it's not like anyone escapes their prisons, so that would just as effectively silence anyone.
Perhaps Vader is hoping Luke doesn't have the guidance to know that Vader is the one causing his friends pain. Remember, he is using them to lure Luke in, and of course he'd keep them alive until Luke is in his clutches. What if he hears Luke is coming in, he kills the others rebels, and Luke decides to turn around and leave?
I agree, but why not get rid of Chewie? You have Han and Leia as bait, there's no need to keep the wookie around. He's crazy strong and has the best chance of doing damage/helping the others escape given his strength. Plus the added pain and anguish would further drive Luke to pursue his surviving friends. I don't subscribe to the Threepio theory - that's interesting, but if C-3PO can survive getting blown to pieces then he could easily survive Chewie getting blasted and falling down.
I still think Vader's good side is getting the better of him in the last few movies.
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I'd argue that people already know that...that's why there is a rebellion. It's not like the Empire fears anyone going public with the information. They use the Death Star shortly after this to very publicly show everyone how powerful they are. Besides, it's not like anyone escapes their prisons, so that would just as effectively silence anyone.
What makes you think nobody escapes their prisons? I'd think people can/do as much as any similar situation in fiction or fact. Some would be more difficult than others. Some might be impossible. Madine escapes one of their supposedly maximum security prisons with the help of Kyle Katarn. But why risk it, if it's a concern at all? Nothing is perfect... Vader would know this best maybe considering his history of working with fairly inept people. :) I'd think he'd be thorough to the point of being neurotic.
There seemed to be distinct fear about the information going public though, right in the film... The Death Star hadn't yet "gone live". There's several mentions to the Emperor needing to control things through the beaucracy, and the Imperial Senate not standing for this seemingly illegal move by Vader... I saw quite a bit of fear that this could wind up public knowledge.
Tarkin knows when the DS is ready to roll they feel comfortable and Palps is going to dissolve the Senate and anyone who objects just gets obliterated. Simple. But it wasn't a done deal at that point, and it seemed like a pretty big deal to get the plans to the ultimate weapon back then, since it's a major key to ending the need for the Senate. Vader in particular seemed interested in that, even if others were overly proud of their technological terror.
If anything, I look at Vader's behavior in ANH as not completely sold on the Death Star, and knowing that he should get those plans back quickly, and as quietly as he can, so the master plan he and Palps have doesn't have any speedbumps. If you can eliminate anything remotely to do with the missing plans, I think it just is easy logic to say you eliminate them.
But I still agree, there's plenty of prisons of varying degrees of "security" and purpose, and plenty of Rebels are held prisoner. I think the Tantive IV crew's fate is sealed and they're dead, simply so all ties to this and the DS's plans are eliminated. Vader's an accomplice in the destruction of an entire planet of innocent people. The Tantive IV crew is probably low on his apologies list.
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I wouldn't really call Vader an accomplice unless you're going to throw everyone in the Empire under that bus. It was Tarkin's station and Tarkin's call with no real involvement from Vader. In fact, he shows his disdain for the station when they're in the briefing room.
The real question I guess is how much time passes between the capture of the Tantiv IV and the destruction of Alderaan? If there was a substantial amount of time, then I could maybe see some interest in still protecting the secret. But it seems like this all happens in a pretty short window of time. I just don't see any real motive for silencing the Tantiv IV crew. Like I said before, they clearly don't have the plans or have them memorized, so the only "threat" these guys really have is letting others know about the Death Star. If the Empire plans to use it in a few days or weeks, who cares about the news getting out? In fact, that probably works in their favor to get people talking about it and afraid of it.
I think Vader and company wanted the plans to prevent someone from finding a weakness in the station, but I don't see anything that shows they are concerned about keeping the DS a secret now that it's operational.
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He's aboard the Death Star, on the command bridge, when the order's given, even restraining Leia and forcing her to watch... I consider that an accomplice in the action. If it were a "war crimes" trial, I'd imagine Vader would be as responsible as every other officer aboard the Death Star, at the very least. Probably far more so, and maybe only slightly less than Tarkin who gave the actual order.
I don't really think Vader shows disdain for the station either... That's dislike. He just says they shouldn't be so proud of it because it's not the ultimate power in the universe... I don't see anything in him that says it's a bad thing, he just knows it's not perfect, or all powerful, as I think he probably feels the Force probably is the only "ultimate power in the universe".
The time that passes during ANH is pretty debatable... Vader has to travel from Tatooine to wherever the Death Star is, and it has to travel to wherever Alderaan is, and then it has to travel to wherever Yavin is... And it seemingly travels slower than smaller vessels with hyperdrives...
I think it's tough to nail down, one way or another, what time elapses in any of the films. At least as far as lending credence to an argument. The film itself edits long ammounts of time out for obvious reasons, but I think it's fair to say time is moving slower than the films show. To me it's a non-issue though ultimately.
It also doesn't cover what kind of time there was from the point where the DS plans are stolen, to when they're sent to the Tantive IV... From there the Tantive IV makes several hyper jumps according to EU sources, so there's more possible analyzing time.
But ultimately the argument I'd make is that there is nothing to clearly indicate what the Rebels do, or don't know, that you took prisoner. And, again, airing on the side of caution, you're further ahead to just kill and be done with it in that situation. Time plays a factor in this, but it's very hard to nail down if it's a short ammount of time, a long ammount of time, or what any of the Rebels may know about it. You can torture them to get the information, but even then that's not a guarantee that you can get anything out of them.
WE know Leia doesn't know, and if she doesn't then logically none of the rest do, but Vader and co. don't know that, and so they're working off assumptions. With the time elapsed being completely arguable, and with any individual crew member or droid's own personal abilities at interpreting the schematics and remembering anything they find being completely impossible to tell, then I really feel it makes total sense you just kill the crew to save yourself hastle.
Not to mention I think many (most?) people like to consider the main baddie in Star Wars to be an actual baddie and not a softy who'd prefer taking prisoners. :)
But I still get where you're coming from on that, and I agree that it doesn't explain Chewbacca surviving entirely. I think the 3PO argument is maybe a sound one, but it's kind of weak too, at the same time.
Since the established backstory on the Tantive IV seems to say the ship and crew are offed, I'm sticking with that. It also fits my perception of Vader as a character though, and just makes sense to me more than them keeping the crew prisoner for no real necessary reason, and with what I perceive as some risk no matter how minimal.
To me, Vader is "twisted and evil"... his "good", to me, is very feint, like Obi-Wan kind of tells Luke on Dagobah. Luke knows it's there, as does Kenobi, but Kenobi doesn't have much hope it can be fixed, and doesn't seem to want Luke to risk that. He just wants things to be set right, as Yoda does, and only LUke's love of his father and Vader's love of his son is ultimately what sets everything right... kind of ironically.
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I think a lot of this just comes down to your own subjective interpretation.
I don't really think Vader shows disdain for the station either... That's dislike. He just says they shouldn't be so proud of it because it's not the ultimate power in the universe... I don't see anything in him that says it's a bad thing, he just knows it's not perfect, or all powerful, as I think he probably feels the Force probably is the only "ultimate power in the universe".
Maybe. I don't recall him ever saying anything positive about the sation though, so that's all just how you're interpreting the gaps in information. I took it that he doesn't care much for sitting back in a moon-sized battle station blowing up planets. Anakin/Vader is a man of action - guys like that don't want to sit back in a distant control room, they want to use a more hand's on approach. That's why Vader hops in his own TIE fighter at Yavin, why he personally lands on Hoth, etc. He's clearly following the Emperor's lead on the DS and even Tarkin's, so he has to do his job on and off the station to protect the Empire's asset. Doesn't mean he likes it in the least.
The time that passes during ANH is pretty debatable... To me it's a non-issue though ultimately.
I brought up the timing because a lengthy amount of time between scenes is the only rationale I can buy into on why they would kill the crew. Give me a scenario where locking them up in a prison drives a different outcome for the Empire. The station and its defenses are fully operational, the Rebels don't know of a weakness without a full schematic of the plans, there's little chance of them escaping in time to tell anyone about it, and even if they do manage that there's nothing anyone can do about it without a significant amount of time to plan some kind of sabotage. The Empire wants to demonstrate the power of the station very publicly by the end of the movie...in the very unrealistic possibility that some of these guys escape custody and do so in time to let someone know what is happening, what could they possibly due about it?
Vader has to travel from Tatooine to wherever the Death Star is, and it has to travel to wherever Alderaan is, and then it has to travel to wherever Yavin is... And it seemingly travels slower than smaller vessels with hyperdrives...
Yet another reason to not worry about the crew. No one would know where the Death Star is anyway since it's on the move up until the battle of Yavin.
But ultimately the argument I'd make is that there is nothing to clearly indicate what the Rebels do, or don't know, that you took prisoner. And, again, airing on the side of caution, you're further ahead to just kill and be done with it in that situation. ...Since the established backstory on the Tantive IV seems to say the ship and crew are offed, I'm sticking with that. It also fits my perception of Vader as a character though, and just makes sense to me more than them keeping the crew prisoner for no real necessary reason, and with what I perceive as some risk no matter how minimal.
I haven't seen anything about an established backstory stating the crew was killed. Isn't that why the question was posed here? You can't honestly state that like it's an established fact without some kind of source. I call shenanigans! ;)
It really comes down to three issues for me:
#1 - There shouldn't be any difference between locking them up in a secure location and killing them. The EU stories on Imperial prisons show the Empire is very effective at faking deaths and hiding prisoners away for a long, long time.
#2 - There's no real risk if anyone gets the information anyway. What are they going to do with it?
#3 - I believe the prisoners are far more useful alive than dead. Per the above, there's no reason to kill them. Alive, they may have rebel secrets to reveal, like the location of the rebel base if Leia doesn't come through. Maybe they can implicate rebel spies or be brainwashed into sleeper agents as we've seen in some of the other EU stories. At the very least they are skilled, intelligent people that could be useful slaves elsewhere. People seem to forget that the Imperial War Machine would require a boatload of materials, supplies, and construction to keep it running.
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I'll cite Wookieepedia as my source, which if you look up Tantive IV it states it in it and all the citations are there. I believe though, specifically, it's mentioned in either the novelization or radio drama, and I'm quite sure elsewhere. I know a comic story arc revolved around Leia and her ship's crew even.
Actually after a quick look in just the EGVV, they state right in it that only Leia survives the ship and crew's capture, so there you go for a non-Wookieepedia one, haha. I'm pretty sure though their deaths were established as far back as the West End Games days, but those books aren't accessible for me to check. :-\ It's on Wookieepedia though, which for a fictional universe is good enough for me. ;D
I agree, it's quite subjective...
Timelines are subjective because the film is edited to speed things up, or at least one could easily assume that.
How you view Vader is subjective... I think a lot of your points are interesting about him softening up, but I just don't view him that way. His behavior at the end of ROTS, I feel, establishes his behavior largely till at least his encounter with Luke at Bespin.
I agree he's not one to sit back on the Death Star, but he was also pretty boastful standing on its bridge, since his plan led them to the Rebel base. He was pleased with what he'd just done to end Kenobi's life, and he was pleased that he could be a part of what he saw as the end of the Rebellion. I think him just standing there soaking it in shows he's pretty happy with the Death Star too. I see him as a man of action too. It's even mentioned that's why he likes Veers, that he leads the men into Echo Base himself... He's not a *****, for sure.
Still though, doesn't mean he dislikes the Death Star either... It's different interpretations of the character.
About the timing issue, a lengthy ammount of time between scenes isn't practical for the film. That's obvious. It's another fairly subjective matter. The only thing I think you can use as a gauge is the constant jumping about. Alderaan is blown up... I'm not a physics major, but it seemed spread out. Would it have been that spread about and things, without there having been a bit of time elapsed? Would it all already be cooled down and such? I don't know, of course, but it's another thing to consider I think, regarding time elapsed. Just as all the hyper jumping about for the Death Star and Vader are issues to consider. But there's nothing really solidifies it one way or the other.
I like to think there's a good deal of time there though, but that's just me.
To your three issues, I give you three counters that work for me explaining it the other direction...
#1 The Imperial prisons in SW lore are also something people escape from, and it's just natural that people will try. Vader's not a half-asser IMO, and so I see him being thorough and having no issue killing people, so anyone with any possible knowledge, no matter how small or unimportant, and even if they know something or not, are all gone. He wants it wiped out. If he doesn't, I'd think Palpatine maybe would, and he IS a prick even if Vader isn't. Maybe any survivor with any information would pass it onto other Rebels, or whoever, and there's absolutely NO reason to keep them alive except a softer heart. There's every reason to kill them, if just so you're mind is at ease (assuming Vader's a bit of a dick, of course).
#2 There's only zero risk, if there's zero information. Tarkin had the same thought that even if they had the info, nothing could be done with it. If he'd blown up Yavin IV, there's more Rebels than the ones there. There's a galaxy of a "billion billion worlds"... You only tempt fate by leaving survivors, at all, regardless of timelines or any other factor.
#3 Again, it's a galaxy of a "billion billion worlds". A small class of ship with a small crew, as the Tantive IV had, which a number were killed outright, are inconsequential to the Imperial war machine running or not. Some could hold secrets. I would think they're kept as long as they felt was necessary, however, Vader chokes the senior officer to death. I don't doubt some are kept for a while, but I think by the time Leia's death order is given, they're already dead. Interrogated and exhausted of information. Any information they were holding out on, especially regarding the new super secret ultimate weapon thing that cost a lot, is going to go with them, and not be useful to anyone. That to me far outvalues a Rebel soldier's usefulness as a slave, or even a sleeper "manchurian candidate" type situation. Ultimately you have the Death Star now, and if you've secured its secrets, you wouldn't even need such an elaborate scheme.
I totally see your points, I just don't agree is all. It's an impasse, but not one without seeing what each other's points are anyway.
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I see your points Jesse, but you still haven't addressed the big question: What could possibly happen if those rebels escaped to tell someone? Let's just pretend that the crew escapes before being killed or sent off to prison. What can they do about it? They don't have the plans. You keep bringing up that the Empire wouldn't leave things to chance or risk, but what actual risk is there? And if that's really their line of thinking, why let Leia escape? It stands to reason that she knows more than any of her crew, but they practially pave the way for her to get back to the rebel base, which ironically leads to the Rebels finding a way to blow up the death star. Doesn't really make sense to kill the crew on the off chance that they know something and not treat Leia the same way. I think Vader lost control with Antilles - he's done that a lot as Anakin.
I think you're downplaying the potential for POWs as well. Destroying Yavin isn't going to take out all the Rebels - these guys could be useful in so many ways. Who did they get the info from? What spies might be in the Empire's ranks? Where were the rebels getting their funding? Who was supporting them? What other bases might they have? Who in the senate is loyal to the Rebellion? Heck, just getting a few rebel codes out of them could prove very useful. Further interrogation might yield some of those answers. If not, I still don't see any risk at all in keeping them alive, so why not try to make sleeper agents or slaves out of them?
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I see your points Jesse, but you still haven't addressed the big question: What could possibly happen if those rebels escaped to tell someone? Let's just pretend that the crew escapes before being killed or sent off to prison. What can they do about it? They don't have the plans. You keep bringing up that the Empire wouldn't leave things to chance or risk, but what actual risk is there?
I've addressed that... They simply don't know what those Rebels do, or do not know. They've interrogated them (assuming there), and learned nothing. But as Vader noted of Leia, her resistance to her mind-probe was considerable... One could assume they know nothing and you can just throw them in prison, but that's a risk. They may know it and just are able to evade telling you because your torture didn't work.
Again, forget taking the risk, however slight, and kill them. Problem solved for certain then.
Letting Leia go, a major mistake... Tarkin even says, it's a considerable risk he's taking, letting Vader do things his way. And ultimately it leads to the station's demise. Doing things the easy, thorough way, and destroying the Falcon without getting any info on where the Rebellion's major fortress is, was obviously the smarter way to have gone about it. They wanted their cake and to eat it too, I guess. They wanted to not only destroy the plans, but also find and destroy the Rebellion at the same time.
I think you're downplaying the potential for POWs as well. Destroying Yavin isn't going to take out all the Rebels - these guys could be useful in so many ways. Who did they get the info from? What spies might be in the Empire's ranks? Where were the rebels getting their funding? Who was supporting them? What other bases might they have? Who in the senate is loyal to the Rebellion? Heck, just getting a few rebel codes out of them could prove very useful. Further interrogation might yield some of those answers. If not, I still don't see any risk at all in keeping them alive, so why not try to make sleeper agents or slaves out of them?
By no means am I downplaying that, but the Tantive IV crew's most important person may be in their hands already (Leia). Assuming Antilles is the ranking officer aboard the ship, are the others of any use, or just grunts? POW's in real wars aren't all interrogated till the end of time because there's perceived value in them that if you just keep digging you'll get to it. At some point, a grunt is just a grunt. :)
That aside though, there's use, but this is a MASSIVE galaxy. I think you're not acknowledging the sheer scope of the Star Wars universe... The Tantive IV is one ship. A small one at that, with a fairly small crew. Whatever you might gain, does it outweigh what you could possibly lose by letting anyone with any sliver of access to the station's plans go? I can imagine they could have entire planets of JUST POW's from the Rebellion, much less political dissidents, "sub-species", not to mention legitimate criminals (by all accounts the Empire seems to want to bring the galaxy to some sort of order, and I think the films even back it up to some degree that they do instill their order in sectors that were fairly bad before the Empire, but I digress).
Do 150 slaves, or possible sleeper agents, outweigh the slightest possibility of a security risk of any kind? I think they've probably got a lot of Rebel prisoners of varying levels of importance... It just boils down to whether the Empire would be willing to allow anyone with any shred of knowledge of the DS's plans slip out because they think they can make use of them in another way.
Hell, a lot of what the Rebels on the Tantive IV know may even be useless if the Alliance has any inkling of the ship being overtaken by the Empire. Even it disappearing in an "accident" may make them suspicious enough to change codes, mover personnel, etc.
Back to the point of what could happen though... Like I said, the Empire doesn't know exactly what these people know about something they've bet the house on. If the Death Star fails, the Emperor will find that many worlds will rebel against him, and he lost his super weapon to keep things in line. He's dissolved the Senate, the Death Star's going to go live... Any risk, no matter how small, is huge when you have everything on the table. The Empire simply doesn't know the risk involved. We know, or at least can guess as fans, that the Tantive IV crew pretty much knew nothing, and R2 was really the only one who did. The Empire doesn't, and that's everything to this debate, as far as I'm concerned. That is what would drive the Empire's decisions, and I think they'd try to be thorough based on the unknown.
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I see your points Jesse, but you still haven't addressed the big question: What could possibly happen if those rebels escaped to tell someone? Let's just pretend that the crew escapes before being killed or sent off to prison. What can they do about it? They don't have the plans. You keep bringing up that the Empire wouldn't leave things to chance or risk, but what actual risk is there?
I've addressed that... They simply don't know what those Rebels do, or do not know....Again, forget taking the risk, however slight, and kill them. Problem solved for certain then.
You really haven't addressed it. Maybe I'm not being clear enough in my question: I want to know a made up scenario where this Tantiv IV crew could make any kind of difference in the outcome. You're saying to kill them no matter what the risk and I'm saying the risk is so inconcievably small that it just doesn't matter. Your "risk" would need to follow something along these lines:
The Empire sends the crew off to a prison planet, from which almost no one ever escapes. Somehow these grunts discover a way out within the first few days and find a way off the planet and avoid getting blown up by planetary defenses that would surely be in place around the planet. Then the crew zips back to the Holonet news to tell everyone about the Death Star...at which point no one believes them. Or dozens of worlds do believe them ...and they do what? What did anyone do after Alderaan? Nothing. Let's back up...instead the Tantiv IV crew goes directly to the rebel base to warn them about the death star and the Rebels ...do what? The station is secure from whatever the rebels might throw at it. Let's try again...one of the crew that miraculously escapes in short order has a photographic memory! And that guy is also a fantastic graphic arts person, so he can translate his memories into very specific diagrams from the schematics. He spends the next month sketching them out from the images in his mind and then the rebel engineers diagnose the exhaust port is the weakness to blowing up the station.
THAT is what the Empire is going to worry about? Seriously? Sorry, but that's a zero risk situation. And recall, the Empire doesn't know about the Exhaust port issue. In Tarkin's head, there are zero weaknesses to the station. He assumes zero risk to the DS even when the rebels are attacking. I completely understand your point of view on eliminating a potential risk, but I don't see any possible scenario where these guys could be a risk on the ridiculously slim chance that they could escape in time to even tell anyone anything they know.
You also argue that these guys are grunts that probably don't have any useful information. So your assumption is that they know enough about the Death Star to potentially cause it's downfall if they could get away, but they couldn't possibly have any useful knowledge about the inner workings of the Rebellion? Those are some really subjective assumptions. Honestly, I can see the Empire not really caring one way or another about these guys. If they killed the crew, I think it's more out of simple convenience than any perceived risk of a leak. Maybe it's not worth the expense to transport these guys elsewhere if they truly know nothing.
That aside though, there's use, but this is a MASSIVE galaxy. I think you're not acknowledging the sheer scope of the Star Wars universe... The Tantive IV is one ship. A small one at that, with a fairly small crew. Whatever you might gain, does it outweigh what you could possibly lose by letting anyone with any sliver of access to the station's plans go?
Sure it's a big galaxy, but how big is the rebellion? They launch a few dozen ships to attack the death star out of their main base. That's it? You want to talk risk - how about the risk that these guys know something valuable that you're not going to get out of them if they're dead? Even grunts might know the location of a secondary base or spies in the Empire or lead them on a trail to people who are funding the rebellion. Maybe the rebels would change their codes - maybe not. Look at what the rebels did with one old Imperial code in trying to reach Endor. Surely the Empire has a better system for managing security codes than a handful of scattered, poorly funded rebels.
And just to build on that idea, keep in mind that the Empire was not done just because the Emperor and Second Death Star were blown away. In much the same way, other Rebels or new Rebels would still be out there even if the Yavin base was destroyed. If you were confident that you're about to blow away the rebel base like Tarkin was, then the smart priority would be on keeping these prisoners to extract any knowledge you could from them.
If the Death Star fails, the Emperor will find that many worlds will rebel against him, and he lost his super weapon to keep things in line.
Disagree. The Death Star did fail and we don't see any evidence that all the worlds joined up to overthrow him. I'm not sure when the Calmari joined up - maybe the loss of the Death Star contributed to them joining the rebellion, but that's just my speculation. The Empire had a pretty firm grasp on the galaxy even without the Death Star - the DS is just meant to be an ultimate solution. The Emperor and Tarkin were supremely confident in the station, so much so that they disband the senate before the DS even goes live. I can't see those guys really caring one way or another about the survivng crerw making any kind of impact whatsoever.
Now, if the Empire was run by Hasbro, I could definitely see them killing people off to make sure no one gets the news out before them. ;)
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You really haven't addressed it. Maybe I'm not being clear enough in my question: I want to know a made up scenario where this Tantiv IV crew could make any kind of difference in the outcome. You're saying to kill them no matter what the risk and I'm saying the risk is so inconcievably small that it just doesn't matter.
The funny thing about this entire argument is you're as subjective with your POV as I am with mine, which makes it completely pointless. :)
But here's my point again... {Hypothetical} The Tantive IV, which has been hyper jumping trying to evade the Devastator for some time, has had time to at least attempt to analyze the plans. They've looked them over... Some crewmen involved have ideas of what the Death Star may or may not have as a weak point, or possible weak points, among them the exhaust port.
The Tantive IV is finally overrun in the Tatooine Systyem where some of the crew survive the assault from the Devastator, are interrogated, reveal nothing, and are sent to a penal world of some sort.
Since this is all hypothetical, let's say the Death Star destroys Alderaan, Leia's dead, etc.
Somehow, some of these survivors taken prisoner escape... however. It can happen, so that's the main point.
They take the information to whoever is left. How big/small the rebellion is, again, is subjective, but the EU says it's a lot larger than just Yavin IV... Again, choose to argue that, search Wookieepedia, whatever. It's only "small" by comparison. In SW terms, small can still be fairly sizable, but I digress.
Anyway, they get this info back to whatever remains of the Rebellion other than the Yavin base, and there's now new hope... They put together the same attack as in the film, and the same result can happen.
To me it's just a simple wiping clean of any possible scenario... Slim as it may be, a chance is a chance, and I think if the Emperor or Vader thought anyone had any inside track, they'd want that person gone.
You're acknowledging my point, you're just saying it's so negligible to you that you think the Empire wouldn't bother. I'm saying I think the Emperor or Vader would be more thorough than that if they were aware of who those people were. They'd likely never know what they knew, or didn't know, they'd just want them dead to be certain. That's all.
You also argue that these guys are grunts that probably don't have any useful information. So your assumption is that they know enough about the Death Star to potentially cause it's downfall if they could get away, but they couldn't possibly have any useful knowledge about the inner workings of the Rebellion?
This whole thing is a subjective assumption. Yours are too. :) But you're not totally getting what I'm saying here Justin. Their usefulness as slaves and things, I look at as a completely unimportant argument since, to me, the Death Star's security/importance would outweigh whether they were a ship of Albert Einstein's or a ship of conscripts from a penal colony. I understand your point on potential importance, I just think the Empire would put that on the backburner to the Death Star. It's kind of the "big thing" of that timeframe.
I don't assume they know anything about the Death Star though... I'd say the ship is largely made up of the men to crew it and make it function, not scientists, but it's hard to say who is on board there that maybe could have analyzed and figured out anything about the Death Star. Any individual could hold any ammount of knowledge about the Death Star, the inner workings of the REbellion, or whatever. What I am assuming though, is the Empire doesn't know exactly what any survivor may or may not know, and what their skillset might be, or how well they may just be resisting the interrogations... I'm assuming nothing here other than the Empire isn't aware of EVERY fact, and so to be thorough, they may want to kill everyone because the Death Star is the primary focal point of the argument of whether to kill the crew or not.
They want the plans back, desperately. That's a fact. Vader's pissed they're gone. So why would you take any risk that any person you captured could have any shred of any detail of those plans in his head.
I think a lot of the argument could be based on the time passed... When were they beamed to the Tantive IV? How long did it take the Devastator to catch it? Etc. Could it have been hours? Days? A couple weeks of pursuit? I lean towards it being a decent ammount of time. Longer than hours, maybe even days of pursuit with some narrow escapes and whatnot. All subjective though, again.
Those are some really subjective assumptions. Honestly, I can see the Empire not really caring one way or another about these guys. If they killed the crew, I think it's more out of simple convenience than any perceived risk of a leak.
Maybe convenience is a good way to word this... It's convenient, to kill the crew rather than deal with them. Deal with their disparagy of the Empire, deal with transporting them, deal with any information they may or may not have... It's just convenient.
I'm not discussing it as if Vader's biting his fingernails worried these guys have the key to bring down the Empire with one stroke. I think "convenience" is a good way to describe offing them. Like I said a while back... no fuss, no muss.
Sure it's a big galaxy, but how big is the rebellion? They launch a few dozen ships to attack the death star out of their main base. That's it? You want to talk risk - how about the risk that these guys know something valuable that you're not going to get out of them if they're dead?
Again... Depends on what you believe. If you only take the movies at face value, the Rebellion is contained to the temples on Massassi with not a lot more available.
If you believe all the other crap LFL has put out, the Rebellion is ONLY small in relative terms. It's a big galaxy... A small rebellion in it is a hell of a lot larger than anything Earth could put together. It's made up of many planets by our standards, few by the SW galaxy's standards. The Rebellion has many ships if you gathered them all, but few if you compared it to the Empire. They have many men compared to all the armies on our planet, few compared to the countless numbers the Empire has at its fingertips.
The Yavin IV base is their main base... It's secret, has a sizable force, they can conduct devastating raids against the Empire from it that have caused the Empire to raise an eyebrow... They have other bases though. And ships.
Again though, depends on what you accept and what you don't... If EU's your thing, the Empire would have devastated the Alliance at Yavin IV but would've had a lot of work ahead of it to eradicate the Rebels entirely.
About the risk of killing the Rebel prisoners... I wholely believe they keep them through some interrogation, but at some point feel they exhaust them. They either give up their info or don't. Like Leia... She was tortured, didn't give up what they wanted to hear, so she was scheduled for execution.
Surely the Empire has a better system for managing security codes than a handful of scattered, poorly funded rebels.
Again, a lot of that weighs on what you consider "real" as far as Star Wars goes.
The films imply though, that the Alliance is a seemingly organized military... They're spending money on rank badges, and matching winter uniforms, but they don't have a plan in place if there's a possible security breach despite their very existance relying upon those plans?
And just to build on that idea, keep in mind that the Empire was not done just because the Emperor and Second Death Star were blown away. In much the same way, other Rebels or new Rebels would still be out there even if the Yavin base was destroyed. If you were confident that you're about to blow away the rebel base like Tarkin was, then the smart priority would be on keeping these prisoners to extract any knowledge you could from them.
I'd agree except that this relies, heavily, on assuming that Rebel prisoners are tough to come by too... Not that you want to pass on information where you can get it, but do they really NEED more, to the point they would put the Death Star in any kind of risk no matter how incredibly miniscule that risk may be?
Also, if information is so important, why would you schedule Leia's execution then? Yeah, Tarkin's mad, but you're making the argument that every Rebel is of value to the point they'd take them no matter how small their perceived value, so wouldn't Leia be an ultimate prize? That's like the allies capturing Rommel, but because Patton was in a pissy humor he kills him.
Disagree. The Death Star did fail and we don't see any evidence that all the worlds joined up to overthrow him.
I'll double disagree then! :)
Tagge himself says to Motti, Tarkin, Vader, etc., that the, "Rebellion is stronger than you realize". He argues that the Emperor will not be able to maintain control against the Imperial Senate without the beaucracy. Tarkin cites the Death Star as the means of control.
The Death Star is dead shortly thereafter in the film... By all EU accounts, it's a pretty devastating blow for the Empire. It doesn't spell their end, but (and again, EU's all in what you accept or don't accept) it does give the Rebellion help that was fearful before. And isn't that only logical? That as word spread that the Empire had built something they used to destroy a "peaceful" world, you honestly don't think other planets now might become openly rebellious? Not to mention, they've now had their say in the politics of the galaxy taken away by the Emperor because he figured he'd have the ruler to crack them on the knuckles with... I don't buy that in the slightest. The films and EU both at least lend credence to the thought that the Empire would have a new set of troubles post-ANH.
I'm not sure when the Calmari joined up - maybe the loss of the Death Star contributed to them joining the rebellion, but that's just my speculation. The Empire had a pretty firm grasp on the galaxy even without the Death Star - the DS is just meant to be an ultimate solution.
Again, that's a presumption on your part... Before the Death Star, the Rebellion had already won its first major victory against them. Tagge was clearly distressed by them.
The Emperor and Tarkin were supremely confident in the station, so much so that they disband the senate before the DS even goes live. I can't see those guys really caring one way or another about the survivng crerw making any kind of impact whatsoever.
Why care if you kill them then? You've got the ability to do what you want... The Rebellion can make trouble but you can wipe them out wherever they go, and whoever gives them safe haven.
Now, if the Empire was run by Hasbro, I could definitely see them killing people off to make sure no one gets the news out before them. ;)
Trust me, they don't care. It's more likely the sites would be at each other's throats. Hasbro just would sit back and laugh at the free advertising. :-X
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Well, agree to disagree. Basically, this just comes down to whether or not the Empire considered these guys a potential risk. We both agree the risk is incredibly slight. I think the empire would see enough potential value in some form to keep these guys alive, you feel they would prioritize killing them just to be on the safe side. There's no real evidence of either happening, so we can just move on with our own beliefs I guess. Interesting discussion either way.
Trust me, they don't care. It's more likely the sites would be at each other's throats. Hasbro just would sit back and laugh at the free advertising. :-X
Now you're going to start a whole new debate! Trust me, Hasbro DOES care. I have dealt with it personally and they were serious enough about it that I ended up having to make a career change because of it. I've heard of other experiences as well where Hasbro's lawyers have even gotten involved. You would be far, far safer as a member of the Taniv IV crew than being a fanboy who leaked Hasbro details before their time.
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Oh I've been on the receiving end, I know. :) Just read a lil something about this recently, but not SW related. You'd just be shocked how fan-sites can be even worse with each other over stuff.
One more point, on the risk being slight, I know you feel it's slight... I feel it's slight as a SW fan who watched the movie too. My argument was that the Empire maybe didn't feel it was slight since it's all an unknown for them. That's all I was saying. Their feelings are entirely based on the unknown... ours aren't of course.
I could see us at the Death Star briefing... I'm the neurotic officer screaming for the Tantive IV crew's heads, because I think they've seen the plans and all who have seen them must die. You're the officer mad because you want to torture them for further information. Vader chokes us both out. ;D
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LOL. Vader would keep us around because we're not yes-men, though I do think we'd get the Motti treatment now and then.
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I can handle that, so long as I'm not the guy getting drug away by a couple pee-ons in goofy big helmets.