JediDefender.com Forums
Community => Watto's Junk Yard => Topic started by: shmashwitdaclub on October 19, 2010, 11:35 AM
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Iron Man 3 Release Date Set For May 3, 2013 (http://marvelousnews.com/index.php?catid=23&itemid=13588)
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Favreau not Returning for Iron Man 3? (http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/112292-no-iron-man-3-for-jon-favreau)
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Well, that sucks. :(
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Spoiler warning IM3 set shots leaked (http://bit.ly/M8Kgq8) - showing new armored character. Spoiler warning
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Yeah...I've got a couple comments on this piece of news but I won't spoil anything. It's early, but if this is an indication of what direction they take with the villain then I may not be that happy with it.
E...
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I am intrigued.
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Yeah...I've got a couple comments on this piece of news but I won't spoil anything. It's early, but if this is an indication of what direction they take with the villain then I may not be that happy with it.
E...
I'm okay with the presumed villian - that's classic Iron Man stuff right there. I'm less impressed with the armor shown. I hope they don't go with anything resembling the more current "Detroit Steel" storyline from the comics.
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The next Iron Man film appears to be very much about a past Iron Man storyline, and it's not derivative of what we saw in Avengers. Comic fans may be familiar with the Extremis storyline. I can't say that I am, but that's where the rumors for Iron Man 3 are pointing. Additionally, Ben Kingsley has been cast for the movie, and is rumored to be playing the Mandarin. Personally, I can't think of a more significant villain from the Iron Man canon.
Thor 2 is in the works, too. That movie seems poised to show us more of the expansive universe outside of Earth and Asgard. Plus, when you consider the fact that the object of Thanos' desire, the Inifinitey Gauntlet, showed up in the weapons vault on Asgard? I think that Thor 2 might be the vehicle for further developing the plot involving Thanos.
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The next Iron Man film appears to be very much about a past Iron Man storyline, and it's not derivative of what we saw in Avengers. Comic fans may be familiar with the Extremis storyline. I can't say that I am, but that's where the rumors for Iron Man 3 are pointing. Additionally, Ben Kingsley has been cast for the movie, and is rumored to be playing the Mandarin. Personally, I can't think of a more significant villain from the Iron Man canon.
Thor 2 is in the works, too. That movie seems poised to show us more of the expansive universe outside of Earth and Asgard. Plus, when you consider the fact that the object of Thanos' desire, the Inifinitey Gauntlet, showed up in the weapons vault on Asgard? I think that Thor 2 might be the vehicle for further developing the plot involving Thanos.
I hope they aren't going the prequel route for IM3. Extremis was a drug/virus that killed off the majority of people that took it. But if it didn't kill you, it made you near invincible, with incredible strength, speed, and advanced intelligence. Stark ends up taking it to stop the Jon Doe Bad Guy and of course he survives it. It actually allows him to control multiple suits at once, which would make for a fun movie. He also streamlines the armor to fit under his skin - think liquid metal hiding in his pores. I think that part is a bit hokey, so hoping they don't go that route. Mandarin would be a great villian, but I hope they keep moving forward and that this takes place post the Avengers movie.
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I also read they confirmed officially that Ben Kinglsley plays The Mandarin in IM3.
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The Iron Man 3 Trailer is Here! (http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/173321-the-iron-man-3-trailer-is-here)
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Cool trailer. Not sure what to think of this one, but Marvel hasn't let me down yet. I'm curious to see what we get to see of the bad guy (Mandarin) and wondering how Iron Patriot is going to tie into this.
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At quick glance I didn't see a thread specifically for the Iron Man movies, but maybe I missed it. Anyways, the first trailer for Iron Man 3 hit yesterday, so I thought I'd post it here. Looks good, and I'm excited to see it. Big year for heroes again in 2013 with IM3, Man of Steel, The Wolverine, and Thor: The Dark World all hitting next year...
http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/marvel/ironman3/ (http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/marvel/ironman3/)
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I watched the trailer last night. The dialogue from Tony that acknowledged the events of The Avengers was interesting. It seems like they definitely want to maintain some continuity in the Marvel universe. As for the other dialogue? I'm wondering if that was James Badge Dale, who I believe might be playing the Iron Patriot. And the shots of Ben Kingsley as The Mandarin? Those were interesting, albeit I was surprised to see him with a pistol.
I'm sure we'll see some more trailers in a couple of months.
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I haven't followed a ton of spoilers on this or anything, but I have read that the "Iron Patriot" (not sure if it is called that in the movie) is actually the new look for War Machine/Rhodey in the movie. I think there may have been some set pics leaked or something with Cheadle in that armor actually. I like the references to Avengers in the trailer/movie, and that they are continuing to keep that continuity.
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I liked the trailer. Just enough substance and tease on what else will be included. This is the film I'm most looking forward to for next year.
E...
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I haven't followed a ton of spoilers on this or anything, but I have read that the "Iron Patriot" (not sure if it is called that in the movie) is actually the new look for War Machine/Rhodey in the movie. I think there may have been some set pics leaked or something with Cheadle in that armor actually. I like the references to Avengers in the trailer/movie, and that they are continuing to keep that continuity.
I think that makes more sense than the comic version of Iron Patriot being introduced at this point. I think Stark losing everything is a good basis for the story, but I wish they had tied into the alcholism angle.
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Tackling the alcoholism aspect in the film would likely feel tacked on and I am sure many would feel that whatever resolution there would be to the story that it happens too fast to be realistic. In comic, this kind of arc can be fleshed out for a long time. In a movie of this nature, it would likely just seem silly.
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They could maybe pull off the alcoholism thing because he loses everything, etc. They could have a certain passing of time from where he loses everything to when he pulls himself together (Six years later...). But, I don't want this to be a quick resolution, too, because alcoholism is a serious issue. I wonder if this Iron Man could be like Empire and Jedi... have it end badly and have the resolution in the following Marvel film (whether it's IM or Avengers). That could work.
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There's been an ongoing theme of Tony drinking through all of the films. In the first film, cocktails with the generals after the missile demo, and the benefit scene. In the second film there's his birthday party scene where he clearly gets out of control. And in Avengers he's drinking while talking with Loki. So the groundwork for Stark's alcoholism has at the very least been established.
The trailer seems as though someone wants to take EVERYTHING from Tony. Perhaps that loss will be the catalyst to develop a storyline which looks more closely at the alcoholism issue?
But in that respect, we may not have some of the other plot devices available that the comic writers had. Case in point: there was a point in the comics where Tony Stark gave up being Iron Man. He handed the mantle over to Jim Rhodes at that point while he dealt with his drinking problem. And at that point in time, nobody knew Iron Man's secret identity, so having Rhodey fill in as Iron Man worked. It wasn't until after Stark had come back as Iron Man that a new suit was developed specifically for Rhodes, and he became War Machine. But that storyline isn't possible since the films have done their own thing with regard to the timeline.
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There's been an ongoing theme of Tony drinking through all of the films. In the first film, cocktails with the generals after the missile demo, and the benefit scene. In the second film there's his birthday party scene where he clearly gets out of control. And in Avengers he's drinking while talking with Loki. So the groundwork for Stark's alcoholism has at the very least been established.
Exactly. I don't think this would be totally out of left field given what has been set up so far. They could make his ruin initially self-made because of the alcoholism, have him lose everything and give up the suit. Then maybe Rhodey fights the Mandarin and Tony needs to get sober and start over to save him. I think you can fit that into a movie, especially given the initial setup work and the fact that we don't seem to know just how long will pass between Avengers movie. The catch is that he would probably need to get everything resolved before Avengers 2.
But in that respect, we may not have some of the other plot devices available that the comic writers had. Case in point: there was a point in the comics where Tony Stark gave up being Iron Man. He handed the mantle over to Jim Rhodes at that point while he dealt with his drinking problem. And at that point in time, nobody knew Iron Man's secret identity, so having Rhodey fill in as Iron Man worked. It wasn't until after Stark had come back as Iron Man that a new suit was developed specifically for Rhodes, and he became War Machine. But that storyline isn't possible since the films have done their own thing with regard to the timeline.
That storyline was also closely tied to Stane taking over the company and the introduction of Iron Monger, so they obviously couldn't go the same route as the comics regardless of Stark going public or Rhodey already having his own suit.
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Not sure how I missed this (http://screenrant.com/iron-man-3-wasp/), but another classic Avenger may be introduced in Iron Man 3.
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Not sure how I missed this (http://screenrant.com/iron-man-3-wasp/), but another classic Avenger may be introduced in Iron Man 3.
Another article here about Stephanie Szostak. Not sure what to think of her, but that picture in Nick's link is perfect for Janet.
http://nerdbastards.com/tag/stephanie-szostak/
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Agreed, I've said in the past that I think they missed the boat a little by including Hulk and leaving out the Pym, Van Dyne, Ultron story which can lead to Vision, Wonder Man and Scarlet Witch but maybe that will be Phase II or III anyway.
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From the standpoint of looking at the begining of Avengers run in Marvel comics, I agree, Scott. But the Avengers movie wound up being REALLY jammed up with plot points that I think including Wasp & Ant Man would have left the movie pretty cluttered. Especially with the SHIELD weapons subplot. That's something that you didn't have in the original launch of the Avengers comic, but is a product of the Ultimates universe. Still, I think that SHIELD was the perfect catalyst/plot device for bringing the core Avengers together for the Marvel film universe.
What about some of the other major plot points? When you also factor in how Avengers really served to advance the story of Banner and the Hulk? The Hulk FINALLY came into his own after 2 films that didn't necessarily do the character justice. I think the absence of Wasp & Ant Man was a case of addition by subtraction. And introducing Wasp and others in the movies leading up to the Avengers sequel seems like it might be a good way to go.
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I love what Joss did in the Avengers with the Hulk and given his soaring popularity I'm so sure he will be back for more. I would agree that bringing Hank and Janet into that same story would have been tough, but less so if they had released an Ant Man movie beforehand. I am glad see some indication of them coming into the fold though. Ultron would be a fantastic future villian for the team down the road.
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New Iron Man 3 trailer is up at Yahoo...wow:
http://movies.yahoo.com/marvel/ (http://movies.yahoo.com/marvel/)
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Best one yet!
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Based on that last clip, they should be calling this Iron Men 300. Looks great!
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Epic!!
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I think the preview looks rather silly, personally.
But then again, I've never really liked Super Hero movies. The only one that's ever been one that I can watch more than once was Batman in 1989, and maybe Captain America.
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Just got back from seeing Ironman3, really liked it. Last half hour was pure awesome
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Was there an after credits scene? Any set up for future movies?
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Yes (and it's awesome). No (or, sorta).
E...
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What he said, yes there is and it was funny well at least my mate and myself thought it was funny and had a laugh, the other people in the theatre not so much
I think it's not going to go to an ironman 4 more that it's pushing towards avengers2
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Based on some of RDJ's recent press, it seems like he wants to step away from the franchise to a degree. And I think he certainly deserves some time away from the character. Don't get me wrong: I think he's done amazing work in this role. And he seems to have moved past a lot of the personal problems that nearly destroyed his career a decade ago. Plus, he's an amazing actor. I'd like to see Robert Downey Jr. move on to some other projects so that he can show just how great of an actor he is.
From the rumblings I've been hearing, a War Machine movie may be a possibility. Don Cheadle's definitely strong enough to carry a movie on his own. I hope that IM3 does service to the Rhodey character so that a spin-off movie would get a good launching off point.
That being said, I'd definitely want to see RDJ return for Avengers 2.
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Saw it last night and LOVED IT. Just as good as good as the first one, and completely blew IM2 out of the water. Thought the swerve was pretty funny as well.
Post credits scene was humorous but did nothing for a future movie, which was kind of disappointing.
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Just to echo what everyone else has said - saw it last night and thought it was great. While there were definitely good moments in IM2, IM3 was a much better movie.
I definitely see how this movie could be a launching point for a War Machine movie and it did give Rhodey enough to do both in and out of the War Machine suit to show that such a movie could easily exist.
Would be cool of they used a War Machine movie to start a Marvel Movie Universe "phase" leading up to a West Coast Avengers movie. With talk of Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver possibly being in the next Avengers and Coulson (sp?) becoming The Vision - giving Cheedle and Renner the leading roles with those other members making up the rest of the team, could make for a neat movie.
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ACK! Coulson SPOILERS!!!
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Saw the movie today and thought it was excellent. I did get the feel that they could be wrapping up the Iron Man single movie series and just have him in The Avengers sequels. I think I'd be ok with that, even though I thoroughly enjoyed all three IM movies.
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Just got back from it. I enjoyed it, not sure why so many people were so unhappy with it. In some ways I much preferred it over Iron Man 2. I can't imagine anyone else playing Iron Man other than RDJr, hopefully he is back for Avengers 2.
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my son and I are going to go see it either later today or tomorrow depending upon local weather so I can do my yardwork ;) and as much as I DON'T want to pay for 3D, I'd like a pair of the cool character 3D glasses I heard about the theaters will have.
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Just got back from it. I enjoyed it, not sure why so many people were so unhappy with it. In some ways I much preferred it over Iron Man 2. I can't imagine anyone else playing Iron Man other than RDJr, hopefully he is back for Avengers 2.
I think he is signed for A2. More likely he wants a break from more IM movies for a while.
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Saw it this afternoon, and really, really liked it as well. Not sure if I'd put it quite on par with the first one, at least for me, but very close. Lots of good character stuff going on, and some great action sequences as well. I'm sure many are/will be upset with the "twist" in the movie, and I can understand that, but it seemed to work within the context of the movie. It really did have a sense of finality to me a bit as well, the ending seemed to be wrapping up the trilogy pretty well while still leaving the door open a crack as well.
As far as I have read/heard, Downey's Marvel contract was up with this movie. There has been a lot of insinuation that negotiations are in process, at least for Avengers 2, and we'll see beyond that. I know it has been said of a lot of characters, but I really have trouble seeing anyone else play Iron Man. To me, RDJ is Iron Man/Tony Stark, and I really hope he at least comes back for Avengers 2 (and 3?). If they decide to get the Iron Man franchise a rest right now, I guess I could see from the standpoint of him wanting to do something else for a bit. We will see. Sounds like this movie will be making boatloads of money, so I'm sure they'll want to make more.
As a side note, if anyone has picked up this week's Entertainment Weekly (with Tony/Pepper on the front) there is a lot of info from Kevin Feige as to the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Some good info in there including Phase 2 starting with Iron Man 3, then continuing with Thor 2, Cap 2, and Guardians of the Galaxy (as well as the SHIELD TV show), and Ant Man kicking of Phase 3. There is mention of Doctor Strange possibly being a part of that next stage, and they also note that Daredevil, Punisher, Ghost Rider, and Blade have all reverted back to Marvel as well (as far as rights go).
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Daredevil, Punisher, Blade, and Ghost Rider all work well together. Throw in Morbius and i think they could have a pretty cool universe.
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Saw it yesterday and really enjoyed it. Better than 2. The twist was probably the best part, but I really enjoyed the character going back to his roots. Like everyone else I was expecting a bigger bad or some greater connection beyond the film, but maybe the point was to avoid that and just have a movie.
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Man, I thought it sucked. Why do the Mandarin if you're going to do him like that? Why do the Iron Patriot armor instead of War Machine? Just a mess. RDJ is excellent, and if this is his last turn in a stand alone film, it's a shame. I hated it. Maybe my expectations were too high, but major disappointment.
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My enthusiasm died over the weekend when I read some interview with the director who called the original Mandarin comic character "a racist caricature" or something to that effect. It's that kind of lack of respect for the source material that turns me off to these revisionist interpretations.
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Yeah... no racist caricature here...
(http://www.racebending.com/v4/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/IronManMandarin071412-thumb-550x582-95999.jpg)
He may as well be singing "Deck the harrs wiff barrs of horry... fa raa raa raa raa..."
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For me, I didn't mind how they changed the Mandarin - in fact there was one line in the movie that IMHO means that The Mandarin could always be in a future Marvel Universe movie.
(sorry, I'm trying not to spoil anything, but it's kinda hard)
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Saw it last night with my boys, they loved it and couldn't stop talking about it. I gave it a big meh. Maybe because we've seen this exact same thing almost three times now. Maybe because deep down I never really liked Iron Man. Maybe because the twist was absolutely stupid. Good humor again, great effects...just sick of this.
I did notice that at the end of the movie it said "Tony Stark will return" and not "Iron Man will return" You can't have an Avengers without one of the big three in Cap, IM or Thor. Not having one of them isn't that big of a deal, that was sort of the deal with being an Avenger. People could go do their thing and always come back. To me Cap is the Avengers, if RDJ is done with Iron Man, I am too and am fine with where they left it.
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A bunch of my coworkers saw it over the weekend and were just raving about it. I wonder if its appealing to the masses, but maybe less so to those of us that have already built up a history with the character via the comics? I'm more anxious to see it even more now given people seem to either love it or hate it.
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I've read Iron Man off-and-on for years, and I thought the movie was great. Unless you have some intense affinity for the silver age canon of the Mandarin, or don't like Tony outside the suit, I can't see finding anything morally offensive about the film from a geek standpoint. From a movie standpoint, the comedy either works for you or it doesn't. The twists either work for you or they don't.
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I agree with Bill. I thought this was better than 2 but not as good as 1. I liked the twist. SPOILERS AHEAD:
Without the twist, Mandarin is just Bane. That would have been too Batman-like since the first thing I thought of when I saw Killian was Jim Carrey's portrayal of The Riddler. In the end it was handled better, but Pearce's take on the nerdy Killian was a bit cringe-worthy.
The after-credits coda was funny, but a little disappointing.
I think that Avengers 2 will center around getting Stark to "suit up" and save the day.
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Yeah - the movie has its flaws. Nerdy Killian was one. The whole scene in the TV van was cringe-worthy and insulting. That scene was worse than the drunk party scene in IM2, IMO. Are there really Christmas Eve beauty pageants with swimsuit competitions in Tennessee?
And Happy Hogan must be a yo-yo dieter. 15 years ago he was a whale. Fighting with Black Widow in IM2 he was fit and trim. And back again guarding Pepper he was huge again...
But those gripes are minor when weighed against the awesomeness of most everything else.
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Agreed. The choreography of every action sequence in the film is so impressive. I thought that Rhodes was (again) underdeveloped, but minor quibbles as you said.
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I read some of the comic run of Iron Man, but it's really been the movies that made me that much more of a fan of Iron Man. That's due in no small part to the amazing job that Robert Downey Jr. has done portraying Tony Stark. And in Iron Man 3 I think he was able to make the character grow beyond what we've seen in the previous two films as well as in Avengers.
I think the big theme of this movie was that Tony was human. He may have this amazing intellect and fantastic skill at building things, but unlike some of his fellow Avengers, Tony is just as frail as any other man. Still, as "The Mechanic", Tony has been able to do things that are truly astounding.
Tony has had the armor at his beck and call through the whole movie series. Seeing him in a position where he has to rely on his wit more than the power of the armor has given his character that much more depth. Especially when he's faced with a foe like Killian who possesses an intellect that's on par with Tony's.
The Mandarin façade was interesting. It harkened back to the Ten Rings plot point from the first Iron Man. But I have to agree with Bill, that the Mandarin character from the early Iron Man comics was very much a charicature that was a product of it's times. And the concept behind the Mandarin's powers doesn't really work in the world that Marvel Studios has established. At least not without a serious backstory that could bog down the flow of Iron Man 3.
I can't say that I know that much about the Extremis storyline from the Iron Man comics. Or if Aldrich Killian had been established in the comics. But I think that if you're going to have a villain who can come across as credible in a film like this, they have to do so from the shadows. AIM works better in the movie universe as a think tank / research organization that's engaged in questionable research to put itself in a position to get government contracts, etc.
As for nerdy Killian from the 1999 scenes in Bern? That was a bit over the top. As was Happy Hogan's look at the time. But I did appreciate the fact that they worked Yinsen from the first film into that scene.
And in the whole mix of things, it turned out that the speculation regarding the Wasp making it into the movie was just that. It would have been nice to see some possible future Avengers introduced in this movie, but I get the sense that doing so might have bogged down a pretty dense movie.
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I would think the major gripe with the "twist" is that a major villain from the Iron Man universe essentially doesn't exist. I suppose a true Mandarin could show up later, but I think that ship has sailed. I don't see why Kingsley's version couldn't have had the magic rings. I think the depiction of AIM fit very well in the movie Marvel universe. I don't think you could have brought in a character like MODOK into the movie. I think they did a good job with most of the Extremis elements as well. I'm not sure I would have gone with the Killian arc as they did though. Overall, I think the villains have been the weak point in the Iron Man trilogy as a whole.
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I never did add my review last weekend but my son and I loved it. I could tell right away it was going to have a different 'feel' to it - if that is something you can discern by the style of new director shane black. I was also a little giddy at hearing one of my fav nerdy 90's techno songs 'Blue' at the start of the movie though not hearing anything by ac-dc to start it off was an "oh, ok..." moment. but as the story unfolded I liked what they did, not being an expert on iron man from the comics, any inconsistencies didn't bother me. It had a very different pace to the story, not as slow as the previous ones (not saying they dragged at all, this one just had a quicker pace to it). I thouroughly enjoyed the dialogue and snappy back n forth between tony and pepper, tony and rhodey and how tony interacted with the kid (though I did say to myself "did he really just say 'p**sy' to the kid?). But I have to say the really big 'shock' to me was when pepper fell into the fireball during the final fight - I was like 'did they really just kill her off?'; but I suspected she'd survive due to her extremis treatment. I really dug all the cool iron man suits, just wished they'd given a little more close up time to each of them but I'd seen enough of the suits online and in the official iron man 3 movie magazine I got.
Overall I was very happy with it, I asked my son how he liked it and which one was his fav and he enthusiastically said 'this one!'. can't wait for the dvd set in a few months!
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Finally caught this over the weekend. As a massive Iron Man fan for 30+ years, I have some mixed feelings about it, but overall would give the movie a 7 out of 10.
RDJ is fantastic as always. His wit and sarcasm make the movie come to life. I loved the side story with the kid who helps him out and I liked that he showed some weakness with panic attacks. Not so sure about the Tony/Pepper relationship - I like Tony as a playboy who never really lets anyone in, but nice to see Paltrow get some action scenes in I suppose. The Extremis storyline from the comics was pretty much the template for this movie, but in the comics the real Mandarin was behind it (not AIM) and Tony ends up getting Extremis, leading to a host of new abilities with and without his armor. I'm glad they went this route with Pepper instead and cleaned that up by the end.
I was okay with the Mandarin twist. Disappointing that we won't see the power rings in action, but I love that they found a way to bring AIM into the Movie Universe for potential future supporting roles. They covered Mandarin, AIM, Extremis, Pepper in the suit, Happy nearly killed by a foe, and Iron Patriot, so lots of current and old storylines mixed into one. That's hard to do while still making a convincing/complete story, so I think they pulled it off well.
My disappointment in the movie stemmed from several missed opportunities. They went to the effort of bringing Yinsen and mentioned the alien invasion from Avengers a few times, so A+ there. But they stopped short on other easy tie-ins that could have made the movie so much better:
- The story centers around a threat to the president, but we don't see any sign of a SHEILD response? Given their presence through all the other Marvel movies that's a real head scratcher.
- I thought the panic attacks were a nice touch given that you have a relatively newb-hero coming out of an alien invasion. But they could/should have tied that into Tony's drinking to make him a truly flawed hero. You see signs of his drinking in earlier movies and he could have easily been drunk instead during all those panic attack scenes. Alchoholism is such a major theme in the comics that its hard for me to believe we've gone three movies without touching on this.
- The War Machine/Iron Patriot was totally under utilized IMO. Great gag with the name and cool enough armor, but Rhodes in armor was pretty much useless. Yes, he saved the president, but basically just by flying away. How about having him come back to the fight at the end somewhere to help out!? They could have even made some reference to him with ties to SHIELD - maybe set him up to replace Iron Man on the Avengers if they want to go that route.
- I was really surprised to not see any ties back to other Marvel movies. A visit from Banner, a phone call to Cap, a date with the Widow...it was really strange not to see a cameo from one of the Avengers when they've done this in pretty much every Avengers related movie. Just another missed opportunity that made it feel less than what it could have been.
Still a fun movie and great addition to the Iron Man series. This movie had a sense of finality to it, but I hope we see lots more of RDJ's Stark down the road.
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- I was really surprised to not see any ties back to other Marvel movies. A visit from Banner, a phone call to Cap, a date with the Widow...it was really strange not to see a cameo from one of the Avengers when they've done this in pretty much every Avengers related movie. Just another missed opportunity that made it feel less than what it could have been.
I take it you didn't sit through the end credits, then...
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- I was really surprised to not see any ties back to other Marvel movies. A visit from Banner, a phone call to Cap, a date with the Widow...it was really strange not to see a cameo from one of the Avengers when they've done this in pretty much every Avengers related movie. Just another missed opportunity that made it feel less than what it could have been.
I take it you didn't sit through the end credits, then...
I did, but that felt more like a joke than anything. No lead to another movie, but yeah at least some kind of tie in.
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Good review, I saw it last weekend and pretty much agree on all those points, especially re: missed opportunities.
If that's it, hopefully they let it stand as the definitive body of work. RDJ did a great job, and the movies are all pretty decent. I don't need to see these remade in 3 years with some other doosh.
I will say, I wish there was more suit time in 3, and more of a traditional "super villain" - he has yet to ever really face anybody with actual super-powers, but I guess that was by design.
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- I thought the panic attacks were a nice touch given that you have a relatively newb-hero coming out of an alien invasion. But they could/should have tied that into Tony's drinking to make him a truly flawed hero. You see signs of his drinking in earlier movies and he could have easily been drunk instead during all those panic attack scenes. Alchoholism is such a major theme in the comics that its hard for me to believe we've gone three movies without touching on this.
I think that since this was a full-blown Disney movie (I believe Avengers was in production during the acquisition) alcoholism as a result of PTSD wasn't going to be touched.
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So, this prompted me to run a search for "Disney Alcoholism" to see if they have ever tackled the issue in another movie. I was surprised to find dozens of articles claiming that Tony's drinking problem actually was a sub plot in the first script! But of course, Disney wants feel good movies and panic attacks are a more socially acceptible disease than alcoholism. Kudos to the original screenplay writer for trying to cover an authentic, critical element of Stark's character and a big FU to Disney for their cowardess. >:(
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I think the reason that Stark's alcoholism is not a plot point is because there isn't a really good way to introduce this very real issue, and resolve is satisfactorily in the course of 2 1/2 hours. Comics have the luxury of being able to deal with the ramifications over several months. Stark's demons are a way to keep him out of the armor, to try something different. The producers (and the audience) don't want a film where Tony isn't in the armor.
There are plenty of OTHER movies about alcoholism.
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Agreed. And I wouldn't be so quick to blame Disney like the only things they're willing to produce are warm and fuzzy. The alcoholism story is legendary, but not really the best thing for a summer blockbuster. I don't think Disney would be against it due to objectionable content, but more because it doesn't fit well with the movie arc or what audiences expect from a summer popcorn flick.
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I think everyone is in agreement. I don't think you can tell that story over the course of a movie. If it we were talking about a television series, that might be a different thing. There you have the time to do the long play in developing plot points. Tony's drinking has been written into the movies. And the only time it proved to be a problem was in Iron Man 2 at the party. Shane Black really didn't touch on it in IM3, interestingly enough. But Joss Whedon did work the drinking into Avengers. Will it develop it anything more? We'll have to wait and see.
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I think the reason that Stark's alcoholism is not a plot point is because there isn't a really good way to introduce this very real issue, and resolve is satisfactorily in the course of 2 1/2 hours. Comics have the luxury of being able to deal with the ramifications over several months. Stark's demons are a way to keep him out of the armor, to try something different. The producers (and the audience) don't want a film where Tony isn't in the armor.
I think everyone is in agreement.
Almost everyone - not me.
- Alcoholism WAS IN THE INITIAL SCRIPT Black was working on, so they clearly found a way to incorporate it. It was dumped because of Disney executives, not because it couldn't fit into the movie.
- It's usage was intended as a sub plot, not the main story. Doesn't mean Tony is out of the armor the whole movie and honestly he was out of the armor most of IM3 anyway, so not sure where you're going with that. Drunk Iron Man was a recent comic plot point and sets up some really interesting questions about the downside of having superpowered vigilantes. This also sets up the potential to have an IM4 with limited RDJ if need be, which would be a nice option now that he's indicated he wants a break.
- The drinking was already established in both Iron Man and Avengers movies, so its not like they needed to spend time building this up. If you can resolve an arms dealer enjoying making weapons then have him swear off them in one movie, then you can clearly have someone enjoying booze and swearing off it in the course of one story. Alcoholism is not something you overcome like a virus. They can't "solve" alcoholism in a lone movie, but they can easily address it and have Tony walk away from it all in one movie.
Honestly, just take the 4(ish) scenes where Tony is having panic attacks and replace them with scenes of him being drunk. Maybe you need another 1-2 minutes of added setup, but you could probably just put a drink in his hand in a few early scenes and rely on the already constructed groundwork from prior films. When Pepper is taken and Tony's drunk, War Machine swoops in becasue Tony's shnockered, actually giving the "Iron Patriot" more of a reason for being and more purpose in the film. He can't cut it, so Tony has to come to the realization that his friends (Pepper, Rhodey, Happy) are more important to him than drinking. He sobers up, swears off the drink, comes up with a system to control multiple armors at once, then the last 30 minutes of the movie are exactly as we saw it. Hell, the narration we saw with Bruce could have actually been Tony at an AA meeting.
I hope they don't touch it now - it wouldn't make any sense since they ignored the opportunity with IM3. This and the missed link back to SHEILD just baffles me. Why would you not plug the TV show and future movies in some way? Can't believe executives were so concerned about drinking, but dropped the ball on SHIELD.
I liked IM3, but this route is completely achievable, credible, and proably a lot more emotional/meaningful for people than what we ended up with.
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Disney and drink (and drugs, etc) go well with some of their former stars. >:D
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If you have ever dealt with alcoholism/drug dependence, then you'll know that it takes a LONG time for someone to regain the trust they squander away. I just don't think that they could handle it in a realistic way in the forum of a mass-market summer blockbuster. I don't think it has anything to do with offending anyone (although recovery experts would probably crap all over such a quick turnaround as you are explaining) but more with catering to the expectations of the audience they are aiming for.
I do agree that those PTSD scenes were a little weird and never really seemed to have a point in retrospect. There was never really a moment where Tony overcame someone talking about NY and the events of The Avengers to save the day, unless I am just not remembering it. Seemed a little tacked on, and changing it to the bottle would feel just as (or perhaps more) tacked on.
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If you have ever dealt with alcoholism/drug dependence, then you'll know that it takes a LONG time for someone to regain the trust they squander away. I just don't think that they could handle it in a realistic way in the forum of a mass-market summer blockbuster.
Okay, for starters my dad was an alcoholic, never got help, and died two years ago from alcoholism. I don't want to make the conversation about me, but you should know that I have a little first hand experience with the disease.
Secondly, what's your definition of a "long time?" Stark has been drinking for years and years according to the movies. It isn't about regaining trust - it's about the pivotal moment when you decide that there's something more important in your life than drinking. Agree to disagree I guess - they could easily show that in the way I described it.
Lastly, you're talking about "realistic" in a movie about Extremis tech and a guy with a flying suit of armor. ;) They could make it just as real as they made the panic attacks, so if you bought that sub plot, the alcoholism shouldn't be a stretch.
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Talking about the issue of alcoholism is one thing, but making a summer movie with it as a major plot is another thing entirely. When Shane Black attempted to make Iron Man 3 more of a character study about Tony, I get the sense that the audience wasn't on board as much as they had been for Iron Man, Iron Man 2 and Avengers. And you want to take this character study to an even darker place? Just from the standpoint of producing a summer movie it seems like a bad idea.
How bad? Apparently, Disney didn't want to go there either (http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=77995). And they told Shane Black as much.
And what about your star? Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse. He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around. He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation. And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way. Especially since he's been through substance abuse and recovery. A summer popcorn movie does not seem like the right venue to examine a very complex issue like alcoholism.
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When Shane Black attempted to make Iron Man 3 more of a character study about Tony, I get the sense that the audience wasn't on board as much as they had been for Iron Man, Iron Man 2 and Avengers.
You get the sense the audience wasn't on board? Based on what research Nick? Come on - this has to do with your opinion, not some gauge of the viewing public.
And you want to take this character study to an even darker place?
Even darker than what, panic attacks? I'd hardly call the movie dark, but yeah, I think people could handle a darker storyline with a flaw Stark will have to chip away at the rest of his life. Were you happy with how they resolved the panic attacks? He just magically overcomes them by fixing things? What a cop out.
Try reading This writer's opinion (http://comicsbeat.com/disney-rejects-tony-stark-alcoholism-storyline-from-iron-man-3/). I like the way he sums it up:
"I think it would have been great to see darker elements of Tony Stark’s lifestyle dealt with in the film. Overcoming one’s own weaknesses—real weaknesses not just being scared of putting on tights—is even tougher than fighting Ben Kingsley in makeup, and suggesting that being responsible about drinking and staying in recovery would have been a powerful message about what makes a hero. Maybe next time?"
And what about your star? Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse. He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around. He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation. And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way.
Maybe, but we don't really know what RDJ's opinion is. Maybe he signed on for this character thinking he could play out a story of substance abuse and redemption. Maybe he would come across as incredibly believable and realistic because of the fact that he's gone through it in real life. Maybe taking on that challenge and hitting it out of the park would give this movie some emotional firepower. The best movies teach you something about yourself or give you a moral to rally behind. What was the moral of IM3?
As I originally stated, this is Disney coping out and playing it safe. Better to get a solid base hit than shoot for a home run in their eyes. I can understand that with lots of money on the line, I just don't agree with it. Even Black and Pierce note "you pick your battles" which suggests that they wanted to go this route too before getting shot down. As your article points out, there are a few crazy moms who were already speaking out against the drinking in earlier movies. Catering to the crazy few and playing it safe is the definition of selling out - I'm just not a fan of that. This story had the potential to be so much more than it was.
Go back and read the story revision I told with Iron Man's panic attacks replaced by drinking. Why does he end up in the middle of nowhere after the Mandarin's attack? He was drunk beforehand and blacked out flying. Why does the Iron Patriot even get involved? Stark's too drunk to handle it. Why doesn't Stark use his army of suits in every fight? It could have been something he developed after sobering up or even a contingency plan he put in place because he was worried about being drunk. Do you think any of that would have made the movie worse somehow? I gave IM3 a 7 out of 10 - with the alcoholism in there it would have gotten a 10 from me and maybe made it something really memorable instead of just yet another glossed over action sequel.
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And what about your star? Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse. He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around. He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation. And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way.
Maybe, but we don't really know what RDJ's opinion is. Maybe he signed on for this character thinking he could play out a story of substance abuse and redemption. Maybe he would come across as incredibly believable and realistic because of the fact that he's gone through it in real life. Maybe taking on that challenge and hitting it out of the park would give this movie some emotional firepower. The best movies teach you something about yourself or give you a moral to rally behind. What was the moral of IM3?
Let's not forget that RDJ was only 3 years removed from being in recovery when he was cast as Tony Stark in 2007. And with his comeback, circa 2004, he has had to deal with contractual clauses and insurance policies that were designed to ensure that he would stay clean and complete his work on film projects. Reportedly, this may still be the case of RDJ's contracts to this day. Are his issues under control? I hope for his sake that he is. Especially in light of some of the amazing work he's generated in the past decade. But addicts do relapse. And most people in recovery will tell you that it's possible for anyone to relapse.
Then take a look at the box office receipts: the Marvel films with RDJ as Iron Man have grossed over $3.9 Billion. That is HUGE money in the bank. Do the executives at Marvel Studios / Disney take a risk with that successful of a franchise by doing a story about substance abuse with a star who has had very public issues with substance abuse? Try looking at that purely from a business standpoint, and I don't think the studio would want to take that risk. Call it a copout as much as you want. But remember, this is show BUSINESS.
As for the "Demon in a bottle" comic story arc, it was groundbreaking stuff. I don't think anyone would deny that. But the summer movie format just does not seem optimal for appropriate treatment of that kind of issue, and the dignity that it deserves. Clearly, you seem to think that you can write that movie. Will it really work? Would it be successful? That's another issue entirely.
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You didn't answer the question.
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Didn't they cover him drinking in IM2? I think that was probably enough. I get your point Justin that it would have worked in IM3 but I also think they'd be rehashing something they already covered. I still think IM3 was a big letdown...I still can't get over the whole kid subplot.
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They set up the drinking storyline in earlier flicks, but never followed it through to him having a real problem with it. I can take the kid, but panic attacks were clearly rewritten to replace drunken episodes and that didn't really work for me.
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Robert Downey Jr has been making the rounds promoting his new movie, The Judge. Sure enough, the subject of Iron Man came up in interviews. Notably, with both David Letterman and Ellen (http://time.com/3481367/iron-man-4-robert-downey-jr-2/). On Letterman he said that it wasn't happening, but he would be appearing in other Marvel Cinematic Universe projects. But on Ellen he said that he's in negotiations with Marvel Studios. So who knows what to believe?