Author Topic: Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (SPOILERS)  (Read 212319 times)

Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2017, 11:20 AM »
Yeah, it could be the train has left the station on a few things, but the movie is stillfilming. It's happened before where toys were bumped last minute. GI JOE Retaliation is the best example I can think of right now. We'll see though.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2017, 12:27 PM »
I get the feeling that Hasbro is mostly at the mercy at Disney's decisions.

Yeah, it could be the train has left the station on a few things, but the movie is stillfilming. It's happened before where toys were bumped last minute. GI JOE Retaliation is the best example I can think of right now. We'll see though.

The thing I come back to is Hasbro's decision to launch the new Vintage Collection in Spring 2018... almost seems like they wanted to have that ready for that time slot in case the Han film got moved out.  They could push back the 5POA Han stuff and not be left in the lurch with something new to offer to the adult fans, then have the usual Marvel stuff out for summer for kids.
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2017, 03:20 PM »
That sounds right on. Pushing some Han Solo TVC figs from May to September is no big deal.

Offline Nicklab

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2017, 08:21 PM »
Merchandising is no doubt a consideration for Disney/Lucasfilm at the corporate level since they receive royalties from all of their licensees.  But I don't think it steers the decision making process regarding film releases.  A theatrical release will gross the studio over $1 billion in ticket sales these days.  That's much bigger money than the merchandise will ever yield. 

We've seen product/figure lines that didn't necessarily line up with their entertainment releases...  The Force Unleashed anyone?  But I fully expect any new movie product to be linked with the release of that movie.  In the case of the Han Solo movie?  You're probably not going to be getting a figure of that Paul Bettany character any time soon, since he just replaced Michael K Williams in reshoots.

As for Episode IX?  I'm glad to see that they have a writer like Chris Terrio on board.  Argo was really good, and frankly a significant challenge to adapt into a feature film.  The process of adapting a true story for film can sometimes be even tougher than a work of fiction.  Especially when you think about the crazy circumstances surrounding the story of those Americans that hid out in the Canadian ambassadors house.  And when you also take into account that Terrio had to write for actors like Alan Arkin and John Goodman?  This guy can write for good performers.  So I am very interested to see how Terrio might exert some influence on E9.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2017, 12:10 PM »
What the films need is a guiding force, within the context of the films, and that person seems to be Rian Johnson. He gets it. There's no issues with TLJ and he's most likely going to take over IX. I think that's great. What the films need is stability and continuity.

I couldn't disagree with this more.  Rian has completely blown up the stability and continuity in the SW universe. 
 - Space Battles are fought with gravity bombs and hyperspace kamikazes
 - Huge capital ships used to be faster than smaller transports, not now
 - Hyperspace travel can now be tracked, instead of a major route of escape
 - Jedi have all new powers like flying through space or projecting themselves to other planets
 - Force Ghosts can impact real-world changes instead of just being a guiding voice
 - Jedi can randomly choose to become one with the force instead of dying from a wound or old age
 - Siener TIE Fighters and Incom X-Wings are now made by the same company
 - Droids were inferior to human fighters, now exponentially superior (BB8)
 
There's a massive lack of continuity in this movie.  I would love to see the franchise move back towards OTC, Rogue One, TFA formats versus this imperative that we have to blow up old concepts and redesign how everything works in order to shock people.  Shock and awe are no substitute for good storytelling.
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Online EdSolo

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2017, 01:01 PM »
What the films need is a guiding force, within the context of the films, and that person seems to be Rian Johnson. He gets it. There's no issues with TLJ and he's most likely going to take over IX. I think that's great. What the films need is stability and continuity.

I couldn't disagree with this more.  Rian has completely blown up the stability and continuity in the SW universe. 
 - Space Battles are fought with gravity bombs and hyperspace kamikazes
 - Huge capital ships used to be faster than smaller transports, not now
 - Hyperspace travel can now be tracked, instead of a major route of escape
 - Jedi have all new powers like flying through space or projecting themselves to other planets
 - Force Ghosts can impact real-world changes instead of just being a guiding voice
 - Jedi can randomly choose to become one with the force instead of dying from a wound or old age
 - Siener TIE Fighters and Incom X-Wings are now made by the same company
 - Droids were inferior to human fighters, now exponentially superior (BB8)
 
There's a massive lack of continuity in this movie.  I would love to see the franchise move back towards OTC, Rogue One, TFA formats versus this imperative that we have to blow up old concepts and redesign how everything works in order to shock people.  Shock and awe are no substitute for good storytelling.

I think you are off on a few points.  I don't think the revelations from Canto Bight are saying Siener and Incom are the same company, just that they can have one person backing both companies in a respect.  I don't think the stolen shuttle was owned by a guy who owned both companies, but had an interest in both or was selling arms produced by both companies.  Much the same way the Banking Clan was financing both the Republic and the CIS at one point.

I don't think Luke "randomly" became one with the Force.  He looks rather pained at the end.  I got the impression that the Force projection put too much strain on him and his system couldn't handle it.  To me it looked like he may have had a heart attack.

The BB-8 thing may have been a bit much, but that wasn't a blanket statement that the battle droids should have won the Clone Wars.  He is just one droid and he took control of an AT-ST.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2017, 03:15 PM »
Quote
- Space Battles are fought with gravity bombs and hyperspace kamikazes

I guess the Visual Dicctonary covers the bombs in some capacity, but without that explanation, what about the TIE Bombers in the asteroid field dropping bombs?  I think this is fairly easy stuff to explain away with just saying they're pushed out and inertia carries them even.  I've seen this come up in other complaints though as a general complaint regarding the new movie(s) though and my first thought was ESB with the TIE Bombers. 

I personally loved this idea of "heavy bombers" compared to fighter-bombers from the OT we were used to.  I'd always wondered if there was such a thing in Star Wars, or if it'd ever make sense, and for me this was a good example of how the concept could work.  They're somewhere below capital ships but above fighters in size.  I liked it a lot.

Regarding the hyperspace Kamikaze, it was visually great, but it does open some questions like why it wasn't ever used before.

 
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- Huge capital ships used to be faster than smaller transports, not now

I'm not sure what you meant here...  In Jedi, capital ships are painfully slow.  In the opening of ROTS, capital ships are again painfully slow.  They're the earth equivalent of large battleships.  I never got the impression from the past films that the Destroyers and Mon Cal Cruisers could outrun the old Rebel Transports, or even smaller class capital ships like Corvettes necessarilly, Hammerheads, or whatever.  It's even a basic building block of most of the video games that surrounded space fighting, that smaller ships are generally somewhat faster than larger ships, or at least can keep pace.

The entire "slow speed chase" thing I thought was maybe not the most exciting for the big screen but it was also similar to naval warfare on Earth, and I thought the notion of gun range was interesting too and added to it.  It almost felt like Hux was toying with them by letting them run out of fuel because they didn't have options but to run.

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- Hyperspace travel can now be tracked, instead of a major route of escape

I was with you on this except someone I know mentioned to me Vader tracking the Falcon to Yavin IV...  It's similar, unless the Falcon went sublight all the way to Yavin IV, but I was pretty sure canon says it didn't.  I'm not too sure on that though, but I kinda agreed on this.  I didn't like them doing away with hypering out as a good way to get away.  Likewise I was thinking, how did the Avenger track the Tantive IV...  Tracking through hyperspace has happened before, somehow.

 
Quote
- Jedi have all new powers like flying through space or projecting themselves to other planets

Is it "flying through space", or did she, rather than "lift" something, instead pulled herself towards something (IE: the cruiser)?  Leia having some force ability was interesting I thought, and this establishing it beyond being able to connect with Luke across the galaxy was something I actually kind of enjoyed seeing.  It seemed like in TFA she didn't have any force ability. 

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- Force Ghosts can impact real-world changes instead of just being a guiding voice

I'm thinking you meant the tree and Yoda, but I can't say that upended much myself. 

Quote
- Jedi can randomly choose to become one with the force instead of dying from a wound or old age

Maybe at Luke's age, the battle did kill him...  maybe it took too much out of him and he knew it would end that way for him?

Quote
- Siener TIE Fighters and Incom X-Wings are now made by the same company

This popped into my head too, but both Sienar and Incom had many factories, and assuming a galactic conglomerate is not much different than a big company on Earth contracting factories who work with other companies making competing things...  I think this is totally believable.  Just as one example, Ryobi and Craftsman, and DeWalt power tools can and often are made in the same factory.  It happens. 

Maybe the guy who owned that ship made their repulsor units, or a circuit board both required even?  Who knows.  It could be more or less complex than it appeared.  I can't say it really bothered me much, but I noticed it too.

Quote
- Droids were inferior to human fighters, now exponentially superior (BB8)

Maybe AT-STs aren't hard to control...  Chewbacca drives one pretty easily, assuming he never has before.  Granted he's not a droid, but droids fly hover tanks and other things in the prequals, and I assume BB8 can fly an X-Wing (R2 could).  I dunno.  It was a "BB8 saves the day" moment and again that's ok by me.  It didn't make all droids vastly superior to humans, at least not to me, when I watched it.  It's like R2's escape from the SBDs or whatever.  Droids being heroes and doing unlikely stuff.  Poe did call him one of a kind, I guess.   :-\

I'm not arguing that a lot of that stuff isn't different though...  This movie was different compared to the past, in many ways.  In other ways it was also very similar...  I see people's points on it being different and new, for better or worse depending who you talk to of course. 
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Offline Pete_Fett

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2017, 03:47 PM »
Quote
- Siener TIE Fighters and Incom X-Wings are now made by the same company

This popped into my head too, but both Sienar and Incom had many factories, and assuming a galactic conglomerate is not much different than a big company on Earth contracting factories who work with other companies making competing things...  I think this is totally believable.  Just as one example, Ryobi and Craftsman, and DeWalt power tools can and often are made in the same factory.  It happens. 

Maybe the guy who owned that ship made their repulsor units, or a circuit board both required even?  Who knows.  It could be more or less complex than it appeared.  I can't say it really bothered me much, but I noticed it too.

Third party resellers exist in all industries. They work with a manufacturer to get their products on the market and sold. Presumably, the person who owned the shuttle that DJ stole could just be a reseller who makes money reselling fighters made by both Sienar and Incom - he gets a discount from both manufacturers and sells them at a comparable price as getting it direct from the manufacturer and gets to keep the mark-up for himself as profit.

At the end of the day, what DJ was trying to show Finn was that there is a segment of the galaxy's population who make serious bank from there being a conflict. Money they would NOT be making if the galaxy was at peace.

Unfortunately, the same can be said within our own country and has been documented, especially during the Bush/Haliburton era.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2017, 07:15 PM »
Han brags about outrunning Imperial Starships.  That would imply they are fairly fast.  The Tantive IV also cannot speed away from Vader's Destroyer despite it's speed.  I'm not a SW tech expert, but I have also clung to the idea that capital ships are faster in a straight line direction, just not as maneuverable... in the same way that a battleship could overtake a fishing boat if they're on the same path as they are here. If that's not the case, why wouldn't Han just fly away from the Empire when fleeing Hoth?

In prior films, I don't think they've tracked ships through hyperspace.  They've analyzed the direction the departing ships have taken, then with some time and calculations determined likely destinations based on possible hyperspace routes.  That's more logical to me anyway, and I would guess given the rebels surprise in this movie that it's new tech. 

Leia having force abilities that strong when she displays virtually no abilities prior is what I have an issue with.  When something is radically different than history has shown its a continuity bump, which is why I provided it as an example. 

Yoda and the lightning on the tree is a massive change in continuity.  Have we seen a force ghost impact the real world beyond their voice, ever?  Heck, I haven't see a live Jedi create a lightning streak, let alone dead a dead one.  Even the Sith have to shoot lightning from their hands.  If Yoda can impact the real world in that way, he could strike down Snoke on his own.

Maybe I didn't explain my issue with Luke's death very well.  I think it's absolutely okay that he dies from the strain of his force projection.  I would have been fine if the camera rolled back to him as he returned to his body and the cloak vanished.  But as I recall, he looks worn out, then recomposes himself and sits on the rock watching the twin suns, very much looking better than he did initially.  Then he vapes.  That's just poor execution.

Cross off the ship where an investor has money in both rebel and imperial tech.  It's not that big of an issue for me - just another example of changing what we had previously known.  There are back stories on the designers for these ships and where they come from, but I forgot that's all Legends material now that Disney took over. 

The point with BB8 was that it was just over the top.  If droids are so good at piloting ships, then why not man the rebel bombers with droids or have a fleet of droid-flown X-wings?  They were supposedly not on par with human skills or improvisation, which was a major plot point of an earlier movie.  Making this droid so much more adept than a platoon of armed, trained troopers just flies in the face of that.

Really, any one of these is excusable on its own.  For me its the sum of all these issues together that I found frustrating.
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2017, 07:51 PM »
Sorry you didn't like the movie, JediJman. I disagree with the idea continuity has been changed or altered in any way. There is no evidence for that at all, and many of your sticking points are extensions or extrapolations of ideas already established.

I'll try and tackle some of your points here (and some of the other VIII thread maybe) and give my two cents. I might cover some of the same ground as Jesse, but I've been thinking on this a little today.

Quote
Space Battles are fought with gravity bombs and hyperspace kamikazes

I know you're aware of the TIE Bombers. There's little in the SW universe that makes physical or logistical sense when it comes to the battles. The Battle of Endor makes no sense tactically, for example, but that's not why we watch it.

Your point on the hyperspace suicide plunge here and the other thread is a good one - it spotlights the problem inherent in some of these films. If this was available as an option, then realistically, Holdo should have done this as soon as she formulated her plan. She could have saved most of the fleet. But that's desperate. Also, we know from TFA that a ship at hyperspace can penetrate the shields of something on the scale of SKB. Why didn't this come up in TLJ? Finn/Rose could have gotten onto the Supremacy but performing the same maneuver. How do you start and stop like that, you say? Easy. You have Poe fly the ship. Everyone pukes, but you're through the shield and now everyone has a story and we're not arguing logistics in a space fantasy movie.

Quote
Huge capital ships used to be faster than smaller transports, not now

I'm willing to believe the Resistance cruisers are much faster at sub-light than FO ships, especially given the ridiculous size of nearly all their craft.

Quote
Hyperspace travel can now be tracked, instead of a major route of escape

I'm surprised this has never come up before. Hyperspace lanes in SW - well, some - are established routes that should make tracking easier than you'd think. I have no issue with this. The execution of solving the problem was one of my issues with the film.

Quote
Jedi have all new powers like flying through space or projecting themselves to other planets

These are not new powers. Re: Leia - she's clearly using the Force to pull herself toward the ship. Basically the reverse of any Jedi pulling their lightsaber to them. Projecting to another planet is something every Force Ghost has done every time they've appeared; the ghosts can appear on any planet anywhere in the galaxy. Luke does it while he's still alive, which means he's attained a power beyond any Jedi or Sith who has ever lived. That we know of. But he's Luke, so I'll say he's just that awesome.

Quote
Have we seen a force ghost impact the real world beyond their voice, ever?

Obi-Wan sat on a fallen tree in ROTJ.

You mentioned having an issue with Leia's ability in this film; we simply don't know what her level of ability is. TFA did not address it, outside of her sensing Han's death, and one may assume - all we can do - she explored some of her talent with Luke.

Quote
Jedi can randomly choose to become one with the force instead of dying from a wound or old age

This is easy to miss and I did on the first viewing; when Kylo and Rey first set up their Google Chat, he says she can't be the one initiating the link because the effort would kill her. The effort Luke exerted in projecting to Crait killed him.

Quote
Siener TIE Fighters and Incom X-Wings are now made by the same company

This is a real world analog, and given the political situation where the Resistance is a 'separate' party to the Republic it makes sense to me they are contracting out their arms to folks who most likely are also selling to the FO.

Quote
Droids were inferior to human fighters, now exponentially superior (BB8)

Might have goosed BB-8 too much in the movie, but I don't have a problem with him on the AT-ST for example. His entire purpose is to interface with other machines and R2 did effectively the same thing before.

My main issue with Luke's death - the first time I saw it - is that it steps on the toes of what is otherwise one of the greatest all time fake outs in film. His death is unnecessary to the plot. I accept it, I expected it and I found it more acceptable on repeated viewings. But I would have left him triumphant, and raising that X-Wing out of the water to join his sister.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2017, 08:16 AM »
Well, to each their own.  The ability to hyperspace into ships is a new concept.  If Holdo was going to die anyway, why not do that from the start.  Or try to ram a lead ship.  If she's trying to distract the ships to follow her instead of the escapees, why not do a hyperspace jump to lead them away?  It's equally silly to think that the imperials wouldn't notice a bunch of small craft leaving the ship they're closely following. 

I don't know how you think resistance cruisers are "much faster" than FO Ships. The Rebels did not appear to be pulling away from the FO, so if anything large ships in the SW Universe all have a similar max speed.

I always assumed that previous "tracking" of hyperspace exists were based on calculations of the escape vector and likely destination points along that path.  It takes time to calc and maybe isn't an option if the vector isn't tracked.  Certainly it wouldn't be an option if a ship isn't there when a jump occurs.  In this case, they seem to have some kind of long range radar tracking movement through hyperspace lanes.  It's definitely new tech as they make a point of Rose saying, "that's new tech."

I don't mind some new powers.  But Luke having a force projection that makes him look real is not remotely the same as a force ghost projection, since that clearly looks blue and transparent.  Kylo used the force to stop laser bolts and read minds in TFA, so adding abilities isn't unprecidented.  Leia using the force to keep her body alive in space is a little less believeable.  She doesn't show much in the way of force ability ever before.  I'm not a biology guy, but between the lack of oxygen to breathe, pressure of oxygen expanding to the vaccum of space, freezing temperatures, and the initiating explosion it's definitely a stretch to think anyone (even Luke) could survive, let alone someone less adept with the force.  I don't mind her pulling her body back to the ship, but then they pop open the door to let her in without a magnetic shield or an airlock, which should have sucked people back out. 

Obi-wan sitting on a tree is not the same as creating lightning.  I can also sit on a tree - I can't create lightning.  Another new power, this time for force ghosts.  Goofy attitude Yoda is another departure from the more solemn and serious Yoda we see in the OT.

Not surprised that Luke died from the stress of his force projecting ability.  I am surprised that he looked winded, then seemed to recover, sit on the rock cross legged, watch the twin suns setting, then vaped.  Maybe he was dying all the while and using the force to keep him alive a few moments longer, it just didn't look like he was still declining when he suddenly vanishes.  Change the scene to show Luke back on the island, injured from the stress, then vanishing into nothing and I'm much more accepting of what happened. 

BB8 is equipped to interface with starships, not AT-STs from what I have seen.  Regardless, his ability to take on swarms of troops would seem to indicate that a little droid could be far more effective than swarms of live troops.  They could have had droids flying bombers and X-Wings if that were the case.  But the whole point of AOTC was to show that humans are better fighters than droids, so showing the opposite of that is a change in the continuity/messaging for me.

Overall, there was too much of a departure from "known" Star Wars for me.  Like I said, none of these are monumental shifts on their own, but combined they felt forced and just too over the top.  It doesn't help my opinion that the overall plot isn't very plausible and the dialogue to help explain motivations and actions was lacking. But I'm really glad to hear that most people liked the movie. I've only seen it once and maybe it will grow on me with repeated viewings.
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2017, 09:21 AM »
I won't belabor any points, because it's clearly not your movie, but -

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I can also sit on a tree - I can't create lightning.

You can't sit on a tree if you're dead, man.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2017, 11:09 AM »
I won't belabor any points, because it's clearly not your movie, but -

Quote
I can also sit on a tree - I can't create lightning.

You can't sit on a tree if you're dead, man.

So a ghost can "walk" on ground, but can't sit in a tree? 
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Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2017, 11:16 AM »
So where do you think Episode IX will pick up?

My guess is it will be at least 5 years down the road.  It would give the rebels time to build up their forces to be a threat ala the original movie, and would also give them a chance to "kill" Leia off and have it be fitting.  They could start the movie with the rebels eulogizing her....I think that would be a nice on screen tribute to Carrie Fischer.

It would also give Rey a chance to develop her Jedi training and even find broom kid and have an apprentice.
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode IX
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2017, 11:45 AM »
So a ghost can "walk" on ground, but can't sit in a tree?

This is the point I'm making - they're already interacting with the physical world. They're imposing on it. They're impinging on it. Why would them summoning lighting be an issue, when they can manipulate physics to the point they can walk or sit on solid objects?

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So where do you think Episode IX will pick up?

I'd actually love to see a big time jump too. Something akin to the jump between TPM and AOTC. I'd like to see a number of call backs to Episode I, if we're really rounding this out. Letting Leia pass between films I think is the only option. Rey could restart a nascent Jedi order, training new warriors (or just an apprentice - Finn?), but maybe not being so good at it given her own tutelage to this point. That would give Luke a place in the story, guiding her here or there. Unless he's just trolling Kylo. Which would be great.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 11:58 AM by Darby »