JediDefender.com Forums
Community => Watto's Junk Yard => Topic started by: Jeff on June 16, 2004, 04:45 PM
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Hiya Guys Gals (I know there are 1-2 of you females out there),
Summer is here in full effect and we are ready to get rolling on our big summer project:
We are attempting to add a deck onto our house this summer.
We started out in May (the five days it didn't rain) by preparing the ground/landscaping around the house: moving trees/bushes/shrubs, building a new garden, pulling out some old hostas, etc. Now that the area along the house and yard have been landscaped for the deck, it's time to actually start building the dang thing, and the more I learn about it, the more daunting a task it is appearing to be.
I've got my plans (thanks Home Depot!) and building permit in hand, and the raw materials will be delivered this weekend. We've also rented up some power equipment this weekend to help us dig the 42" deep holes in my yard this weekend...
Anyone got some helpful tips for digging post holes?
Anyone out there in JD land ever built a deck before?
Any helpful tips that you can offer up to a Novice Deck Craftsman such as myself?
(sarcastic "don't nail your hand to the deck" comments are not needed, but fully expected from you turkeys) :P
I realize that we're all SW dorks, therefore the stereotype indicates that we aren't exactly outdoor-builder type craftsman, but I don't believe in stereotypes, so I'd like to think that SOMEONE else has gone through this before...
;)
Jeff
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I don't have tips for digging post holes, but I did help build a deck for two days once trying to make some extra cash for a Rome trip I was about to go on.
It was actually easier (in terms of technical difficulties) than I thought it would be...but it was a lot of hard work.
It came out nicely though. :)
Good luck.
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There are actually some manually operated drills/augers that you can use to dig post holes. There are also some specialized shovels for doing that, too. The tricky thing is this: how deep does your town's building code require you to get your posts & concrete or cement? The deeper you have to go, the tougher it's going to be. Be sure you check the town's building code to get the proper depth.
As for the deck itself, I recommend nails over using screws for securing the planks to the joists. Nails are a lot faster, whereas screws are more labor intensive. You also might want to consider an adhesive coated nail for a more secure joint. A pneumatic nail gun will speed this process up immensely. If you don't have one and don't want to buy one, you can probably rent one. You may be able to rent an auger as well.
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We built a deck on our house in 2001 after the previous one all but collapsed. It was rather old (20+ years) and we could almost pull it apart by hand :o It was also shaped inconveniently around the area where our pool is, so we rebuilt-reshaped everything to work better. We also needed rails to prevent the kid from wandering out.
As far as post holes go, decide if you want holes or you want concrete post pads first. The pads are nifty, weigh a ton and keep the posts out of the ground so there is less likelihood of rot at the base. We actually buried our cement pads after putting the posts in. The pads are pretty cheap, probably $5-10 each and really help stabilize the deck. If you're adamant about post holes, use a post hole digger. Better yet, get a tube and sink it in the hole, pouring in concrete after. The cement pads are the same concept, just easier.
Use 2x10s for the frame of the deck, well worth the additional cost for the return in strength you get. Probably won't add to the longevity, but won't detract from it either.
Measure twice, cut once and use a level every single time you attach something. Use screws, not nails. Nails pop and tend to rust more easily. Replacing rotting boards down the road is much easier with screws as well, just reverse the drill. A whole lot better than using a crowbar to pry up a rotting board, damaging the surrounding boards at the same time. I think we used 3 1/2 or 2 3/4 inch screws for putting it together. I'll try and find the spares at home to answer your question.
Inspect the wood, don't let some home depot give you a bunch. If you get a warped piece, take it back. It's defective and a pain to them, but you are paying a premium for flat wood. Also use pressure treated wood if you are still able. Copper chromated arsenic is an evil thing, if you listen to the environmental working group, but your kid would have to ingest 2.5 ounces per day for life to get the chronic dose that might, just might lead to cancer in about 50 years (never mind the confounding factors they'll face in the interim). I know Minnesota is not exactly the hotbed for termites, but carpenter ants can do their fair share of damage too.
Dork my ass :-*
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I've put up 2 decks... They're a pain to do from scratch/design yourself.
No real helpful hints unless you really don't know much abut woodworking.
Digging of the posts for us was the easiest part (even with this Western PA dirt, which is filled with Shale and Coal). We had the proper tools to start that though, and cement them into place....
Wear some sunblock, but get a nice bronze... That's my advice while you're out there.
And mind your patience because if you're like me you'll wind up doing it by yourself if you don't control your temper. ;D
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Have lots of beer on hand. Trust me, you'll be sore afterwards, especially if you're not used to physical labor. Beer will ease the pain.
I'd also go with screws. Nails suck and you will definitely feel it in your shoulder after swinging a hammer all day. Buy a nice drill / screw gun (I recommend Dewalt). Trust me, for $129 at Home Depot, you'll get your money's worth.
And I'm proud to say I'm not part of that stereotype ;)
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how deep does your town's building code require you to get your posts & concrete or cement?
City Code is at least 42" deep for concrete, posts can be attached to the top of the concrete footing.
Better yet, get a tube and sink it in the hole, pouring in concrete after. The cement pads are the same concept, just easier.
Use 2x10s for the frame of the deck, well worth the additional cost for the return in strength you get. Probably won't add to the longevity, but won't detract from it either.
[snip]
Use screws, not nails. Nails pop and tend to rust more easily. Replacing rotting boards down the road is much easier with screws as well, just reverse the drill.
[snip]
Inspect the wood, don't let some home depot give you a bunch. If you get a warped piece, take it back. It's defective and a pain to them, but you are paying a premium for flat wood. Also use pressure treated wood if you are still able. Copper chromated arsenic is an evil thing, if you listen to the environmental working group, but your kid would have to ingest 2.5 ounces per day for life to get the chronic dose that might, just might lead to cancer in about 50 years (never mind the confounding factors they'll face in the interim). I know Minnesota is not exactly the hotbed for termites, but carpenter ants can do their fair share of damage too.
The "dig a hole, add cardboard tube, then add concrete" method is the one the city told us to use. We also plan on using 2x10's (another recommendation from the City Inspector's Office). We also plan on using treated wood, but it is somehting different as the CCA stuff has been banned I think...
And mind your patience because if you're like me you'll wind up doing it by yourself if you don't control your temper. ;D
The wife has also already warned me about this one :)
Have lots of beer on hand. Trust me, you'll be sore afterwards, especially if you're not used to physical labor. Beer will ease the pain.
I'd also go with screws. Nails suck and you will definitely feel it in your shoulder after swinging a hammer all day. Buy a nice drill / screw gun (I recommend Dewalt). Trust me, for $129 at Home Depot, you'll get your money's worth.
I'll have to check into the DeWalt drill screw gun, thanks for the tip. I was pretty sure my wimpy little Craftsman cordless drill wasn't going to be up to the challenge since the battery charge only lasts about 2-3 hours (I definately need a new battery), but maybe I should lookinto a new drill/screw gun.
And we're planning on having plenty of cold beer around along with some brats on the grill... that's how we're bribing most of our helpers!
Thanks for the tips fellas! Maybe I'll post a few pictures along the way to keep you updated on the progress...
Jeff
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Nataku, you sound like me with my Pizza bribe working on my haunted house last Halloween!
I worked on building a complete new railing system on my front porch, if that counts for anything.
Kevin
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Jeff, I know from first hand experience that your Craftsman isn't going to cut it. Along with the short battery time, it doesn't have the horsepower.
I've bought four Dewalt tools in the last month and a half - drill, circular saw, jigsaw and palm sander. No complaints whatsoever. Plus, they're all a kick ass yellow color.
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Yeah, that's kinda what I figures. The cordless Craftsman rocks at putting furniture together, doing small house projects (hanging shelves, etc), but I figured it wasn't gonna cut it under heavy use.
I've got a DeWalt Mitre Saw that I bought last year to help with installation of hardwood floors and the new trim we put in all of our bedrooms. It's been a great saw so far, so it's nice to hear another testimony that they are good tools.
Might just have to hit Menards and Home Depot this weekend for a little shopping...
Jeff
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Jeff, I know from first hand experience that your Craftsman isn't going to cut it. Along with the short battery time, it doesn't have the horsepower.
I've bought four Dewalt tools in the last month and a half - drill, circular saw, jigsaw and palm sander. No complaints whatsoever. Plus, they're all a kick ass yellow color.
Not that it's a necessary seconding, but I'll definitely vouch for the DeWalt quality. We were using a 30 year old corded drill and a cordless DeWalt when we put our deck together, both did fine. Our little black and decker cordless almost went for a swim. Pile of crap. Not that all Black & Decker stuff is bad, just this one was sadly underpowered. We currently own the drill, reciprocating saw and a palm sander from DeWalt. Any future purchases are likely to be the same. Gotta love yellow.
I wasn't aware that CCA was already gone in the US. Oh well, as long as it is treated with something as a preservative. Again, I don't agree with getting rid of it once you examine the real exposure levels, but then again I'm not in the US regulatory system.
Sounds like you're in good shape. We did ours over the span of several days so it wasn't so bad, but we did the work mostly ourselves. Tearing up the old one was much more work and part of the recommendation for going with screws. They can likely be re-used and nobody was willing to haul away wood loaded with nails. So I ended up pulling them all out by hand before the old take was removed from our property. By far the most work I had to do. I guess it depends on how long you plan on living there. I would guess the deck should last somewhere between 20-30 years.
Beer good. :)
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Forty-two inches... Yikes! I'm guessing that's because of the freeze level(?). When you're digging, be careful about underground wiring or pipes. These should be on file in your appropriate county office, and in my area, it's recommended that they be checked if digging more than 36".
If you can't rent a motorized -- or even manual -- auger, well... have fun. :-* If the ground is really hard, tools that'll help include those big metal spear-like spikes, a water hose with a jet nozzle (a pressure washer is even better), and dynomite. :P
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Well,
It's been about a month so I thought I'd post a little update. We've worked about 5 weekends on the deck so far and things are coming along nicely.
Here's a shot of the largest (14x14) portion of the deck:
(http://www.jedidefender.com/news/images/7-04/frontview.JPG)
Due to our schedules, we really only get to put in about 10-12 hours of work each weekend, and maybe 4-6 hours of work during the week, so we are a little behind the original schedule we had planned. I'd guess we are about 33% done with the back deck and about 25% done with the side deck (it's a wrap-around).
Summer is so hectic (in MN you have to enjoy the weather while you have it), but things are calming down now so we should be able to really hit it hard in August!
Jeff
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I wouldn't keep that downspout where it is, it might cause some problems later on down the line. If you do decide to replace your gutters, getting that piece out and putting it back is going to be a bitch. It wouldn't be so bad if it was a higher deck where you could get under it, but being so low to the ground is going to make it difficult. Just a suggestion.
Edit to add:
Deck looks great so far, Jeff. Definitely interested in seeing the final product.
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Gotta love those hangers for the boards, some brilliant mind thought those up. Are you 12" or 16" spacing? Too late to change now, but I think we went 12". More expensive, but the deck is as solid as concrete, no bouncing at all.
It looks good, but Mikey's point is a good one. Move that spout or you'll end up with a lot of moisture under your deck.
Can't tell, but I presume you poured the concrete for the posts?
Also surprised to see how low to the ground the house is. Up here, you see very, very few houses that you can just step out of. Most have steps, 3-4 and the elevation of the floor is about 3-3.5 feet off the ground, presumably to allow for windows in the basement. Do you guys have a basement?
Know what you mean about enjoying the weather while you have it. ;)
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That WalkOut style is becoming more and more and more popular around here I know...it lightens up basements a ton. My brother has a house like you are describing Brent with 1/2 of it underground and half above. My house has 3/4 of the basement totally underground and a1/4 with windows and 3 feet below grade...
Looks good so far Jeff!
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That WalkOut style is becoming more and more and more popular around here I know...it lightens up basements a ton. My brother has a house like you are describing Brent with 1/2 of it underground and half above. My house has 3/4 of the basement totally underground and a1/4 with windows and 3 feet below grade...
Looks good so far Jeff!
Mmm, I should describe better.
Most of our houses up here have the situation you are in, 3/4 underground and only enough room for a window that is more wide than tall. But we are seeing the shift to what your brother has as well. Much bigger windows, in part due to fire regulations with respect to window size in case you need to escape. The advent of alarm systems has helped as well, previously it wasn't too bright to have very large windows in a basement.
What we have very little of is a house like I see Jeff's. Step right out of the door onto the ground without a step. Even 40-60 year old houses are raised up that 3 foot amount. I was curious how common it was.
Around the artificial lakes in some communities up here there are full walk out basements as well. No windows in the front, but with the slope at the back you can have floor to ceiling windows. Nice, but seems like a loss of privacy.
I like basements, but that might have something to do with memories of childhood when my parents would sequester me down there to build my models with little to no ventilation. Mmmm, model glue, soooo relaxing :P
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I wouldn't keep that downspout where it is, it might cause some problems later on down the line...
Yeah, that is a work in progress. Just a temporary fix until we can re-work it. The drain pipe will wrap around and drain alongside the deck into the Rock landscape that will surround it. :)
Gotta love those hangers for the boards, some brilliant mind thought those up. Are you 12" or 16" spacing?
Joist Hangers are great time saver! We went with 16" On-Center because that is what the city inspector recommended with the deck at 14'x14'. If we had gone out to 16', they would have had to be 12" joists.
Can't tell, but I presume you poured the concrete for the posts?
Yeah, we dug out our 42" holes with the help of a Toro Dingo Power Auger (like a little tank with a drill), then filled them up with nearly 400lb. of concrete per hole (5 - 80lb bags). :o Took a bit of work to level the posts since the backyard is hilly, but we got it straight in the end.
Also surprised to see how low to the ground the house is. Up here, you see very, very few houses that you can just step out of. Most have steps, 3-4 and the elevation of the floor is about 3-3.5 feet off the ground, presumably to allow for windows in the basement. Do you guys have a basement?
The house is a split-level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-level_house) and on a hill, so, the basement (lower level) is a walk-out as Scott said. It is great because the "basement" is no where near the dark and dingy kind you get with a in-ground basement with tiny windows at the top of the walls.
The front of the house has a few steps up to get to the front door, but the back is a walkout. Hard to describe if you haven't really seen it before I guess. :-\ Maybe I'll post a few pictures of the exterior of the house with the next update!
Jeff
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And the Split Level w/ Walk out or 2 Story w/ Walk Out is pretty much become the standard for newer housing around here...my house was built in the 40's and moved to its spot in the 70's before that trend really took hold
A lot of newer developments have what you're describing Brent with ponds in the back...those are to collect rain water and the like since the houses are so close together there can be drainage problems
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I give you the finished product.
Things I learned:
1) - Get more friends. More help and this bad boy would have been done much sooner. Almost ALL of the work was done by my wife and me. I personally put in EVERY screw and EVERY nail myself, as well as cutting EVERY piece of wood myself. Sure, we had father-in-law help with the concrete footings, and a bit of my dad help installing the decking boards, but it was pretty much all me and my wife.
2) - Better Quality Tools = Better work. I pretty much upgraded every tool I had on this project (circular saw, drill, cordless drill/driver) as well as buying some new ones. Better quality tools may cost more, but like they say "you get what you pay for".
3) - Treated wood scraps are a bitch to get rid of. No one wants to take them away, can't burn them. What do I do with them? >:(
4) - Planning everything from the start was a HUGE help, but evn then, things can and will go wrong. Plan, plan, plan and then over-plan. As mentioned earlier: measure once, measure twice, then cut. It will save time in the long run to double-check each step along the way.
5) - Finally, listen to your wife when she starts talking. If you hear her say, "it can't be too much work to build a deck ourselves, can it?" - Run.
Thoughts?
Jeff
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Nice work there Jeff (and Mrs. Jeff)....its a beaut. :)
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Wowza that does look great Jeff! Congrats on getting done before the snow flies! Enjoy the next two days! :P :)
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I concur. Looks damned near perfect there, Mr. Tooltime! Awesome job. So you're all done with the staining/waterproofing too, I assume? Go get some deck furniture now! 8)
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That's nice how it wraps around there Jeff. It looks really nice.
We just got done putting a new roof on the back portion of the house this past week. I got a week off from school and had some things i wanted to get done... Instead I put a roof on. ::)
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Thanks for the kind words guys! :)
We were very happy to get done over these last 6 beautiful weekends before the cold and rain and eventual snow arrive :(
So you're all done with the staining/waterproofing too, I assume? Go get some deck furniture now! 8)
Waterproofing yes, but they recommend letting the wood "age" for 6months before staining. So, next spring will be another round of washing, staining and water-sealing.
As for the Deck furniture, it is fully assembled and waiting in the garage. Can't actually put anything on it until after we get the City Inspector's final blessing/sign-off (should be here this afternoon to do the inspection).
Jeff
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Waterproofing yes, but they recommend letting the wood "age" for 6months before staining. So, next spring will be another round of washing, staining and water-sealing.
Ah, that makes more sense. It definitely didn't look like it had been stained yet, but I figured you must've waterproofed it for the upcoming winter season, and you usually don't put on stain after waterproofing... 6 month waiting period. I gotchya. Cool. What color are you going to stain it?
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This is what we used to "weather-proof" the new wood...
Seasonite New Wood Treatment (http://www.floodco.com/Products/seasonite.cfm)
Brand New Deck (http://www.floodco.com/howto.cfm)
"It's important that all wood, whether it's pressure-treated pine, cedar, or redwood, weathers properly before you apply a penetrating oil finish like CWF-UV for long-term protection. During this weathering period, excess water evaporates from the wood, and the mill glaze wears off of smooth wood, allowing the wood fibers to open up. Only after this happens is the wood porous enough to accept a penetrating finishing coat.
An immediate application of Seasonite to your deck (or siding and fences) provides a slow, steady, weathering period. The movement of moisture into and out of the wood is controlled. In addition, Seasonite helps maintain the wood's natural color and keeps it looking new longer."
Got the tip from Bob Vila himself on one of those wood-working shows on Cable! You put this stuff on to let the wood weather slowly. Then when you stain it in 6 months, it looks even better because the stain penetrates deeper and you won't hav eto re-stain quite as often to keep it looking great.
As for the color, it will probably take my wife all winter to decide which shade of red cedar goes best with our blue siding... ;)
Jeff
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Mr. Jeff, 2 things.
1, send the woodscraps to ME!
2, Who's in the window? I see hands.
Is it the Ghost of Virex???
Kevin
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Where's the pool?
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Where's the pool?
Indoors, duh.
::)
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Why? Too cold in Minnesota?
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Why? Too cold in Minnesota?
No, it's indoors so we can swim around naked without scaring the neighbors people oogling us... :P
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Wow. That's a really nice job there Nataku! How long overall did it take you to finish it? Have you done any other similar projects that might impress us? What would it cost to hire you to come build one over at our house? :D