Batman v Superman / Justice League / DC Movies

[BillCable]

  I think Banner is really the only major casting change in Marvel.

Rhodey/War Machine? Terrence Howard, the forgotten non-Avenger!

Would you call that "major" though?  I wouldn't. 

[JediJman]

I'm not a big DC guy, but don't they have these universe resetting events like Infinite Crisis or 52 where some cosmic change merges realities?  Are any of those stories any good?  If so, I'd use it to take the best of what they currently have across TV and movies and dump the rest, or just scrap it all and start over.  The roadmap is laid out: you start with some character building solo movies focused on 1-2 solid heroes and gradually build up to team-based movies or 2-3 guest stars to introduce new characters.  Make it fun, but serious, and integrate everything into a larger plot that will pay off over time.  Just copy Marvel at this point. 

It doesn't have to be major characters either - Dr. Strange, Ant Man, Guardians are not big properties, but all had significant roles leading up to the end.  You probably need Wonder Woman & Batman.  Swap Supes out for Power Girl.  Green Arrow is an easy addition as a mix of Stark & Hawkeye, Toss in Flash or Cyborg or Green Lantern and you've got a great base to build around.  Heck, they should build it around Shazam - that's a goofy character that could grow serious over time.

[Phrubruh]

Obviously we need to lead up to a Teen Titans movie that starts up with a dedicated Robin movie.

[Matt_Fury]

So the Snyder Cut dropped today and it's been getting great reviews.  The Theatrical cut suffered greatly from two-directors syndrome.

One thing I'm curious about is if Zach Snyder finished the film back in 2017, how different it would have been from this version on HBO Max.  No way he drops a 4 hour movie to theaters!

[EdSolo]

From what I remember from the original, this is an improvement, but it still suffers being in the DCEU in general.  They really don't seem to have had a plan, and they certainly don't have a coherent plan going forward.  Honestly this version should replace their canon timeline for the universe, but they have crapped the bed on the whole franchise.  The universe is just too over the top bleak.  If Covid happened in this universe, it would have only lasted a week at most because it just isn't dark and depressing enough for the DCEU.

I think they tried too hard to be "not Marvel" and it killed them.  While Marvel has strayed from the comic sources in many respects, they at least set up the MCU properly.  They chose Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, and Thor to be the founding Avengers for the MCU.  One can argue about Hank Pym being a founder in the comics, but it is easy to understand why they went the route they did.  Then, before making their tentpole movie The Avengers, they made Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, and Captain America the First Avenger, in that order.  Everyone gets a background story and the major characters are fleshed out.  In comparison, DC makes Man of Steel, Batman v. Superman, Suicide Squad, and Wonder Woman leading up to Justice League.  While I really loved Guardians of the Galaxy, can you imagine if Marvel released that as it third movie?  Suicide Squad should never have been made when it was.  That spot should have been for Aquaman.  DC didn't even give us a Batman stand alone movie in the lead up to Justice League.  They just didn't establish the universe well enough.

That is where this new version comes in and tries to fix some things.  It does flesh out the other characters a bit more.  However, the universe would have been better served by putting out Aquaman and a Flash movie that featured Cyborg, prior to Justice League.  The introduction of Darkseid as a future threat defiantly helps the universe overall.  It gives a reason to need a Justice League.  In either cut, Steppenwolf just isn't that big of a threat.  Again, it all boils down to Superman.  Why do you need a Justice League, when Superman can come in at the last ten minutes and take care of everything?  That is one problem with this cut.  I think Superman isn't brought into the picture until the two hour mark.

I am still baffled about how poorly DC has handled this in general.  I would think if you asked the average person who the most famous superhero is, especially prior to the MCU and DCEU were formed, you top three in no particular order would be Superman, Batman, and Spiderman.  DC has two of the three and has screwed it up to the point that they are already replacing both Superman and Batman actors a mere 8 years into the franchise.  Really, it is only four years into it since Man of Steel was 2013 and Justice League was 2017 and Superman and Batman haven't been seen since. They are in such a bad state, they have cancelled so many movies and there are no plans for a Justice League 2.  It seems that there really isn't a DCEU anymore.  I don't think they really have plans to link everything together.

[JediJman]

I am in the process of watching the Synder cut and it is a vast improvement over the original.  The reordering and additional scenes are great and they paid attention to a lot of small details for fans of the DC universe.  Little quotes like "There are no Kryptonians or Lanterns protecting this world" make the movie seem so much larger without even having to bring those other characters into it (yet).  The second movie makes it a bit more of Batman and Wonder Woman forming the league versus Batman doing it all on his own, which feels a bit more natural to me.  ITs a good movie on its own or as a sequel to the Batman vs. Superman stuff.

That all said, DC should just stop everything they have in the works and figure out how to create a unified, cohesive universe that integrates characters from across their properties.  They could have used the TV characters who already have rich histories and followers to make this a lot better.  Imagine if Superman stayed dead more than 15 minutes and they instead brought in Supergirl?  Or used TV flash and Green Arrow to help build out the story.  I just think the separate actors and universes and storylines that are all DC, but don't really fit together are tough for the casual fan to follow, especially in a world where Marvel ties everything together.  I think they didn't want to copy Marvel AND felt like they had to catch up, but it clearly hasn't worked.  And now we just have more garbage lined up for the next few years.

I'd love to see them reboot with mini-series TV shows like Marvel is doing now.  Give each core character a story arc to set them up, then start pumping out the team movies.  They could be all caught up in 3-5 years with a much broader and cohesive universe that allows them to bolt on new stories in multiple mediums.

All that aside, I will say I've never been a big fan of the Superman character in a team setting.  He is fine for stand alone stories, but his power set is just too strong to work well with other heroes.  You don't need a guy that's fast or can breathe under water or who is super strong or who can fly or shoots lasers or can freeze things, etc, when you have one guy who can do all that.  There's no risk or concern when a hero is 100% invulnerable and can't even die properly.  Thor is probably the closest match to Superman in the MCU and we've seen him battered around, lose an eye, lose his hammer, and turned into a couch potato.  I think they would have been better off with an angle like, "Superman would have been able to save us before, but now that he's dead we need the justice league to defend Earth in his absence."  At least there would be a reason for other heroes to exist.

[Dave]

I'd love to see them reboot with mini-series TV shows like Marvel is doing now.  Give each core character a story arc to set them up, then start pumping out the team movies.  They could be all caught up in 3-5 years with a much broader and cohesive universe that allows them to bolt on new stories in multiple mediums.

Warner Brothers (owner of DC) is really at a disadvantage compared to Disney when it comes to media platforms. 

They don't have a good streaming service (just HBO Max) which is mostly a collection of movies and previous HBO content.  They do own a bunch of TV channels, but I'm not sure how relevant that even is anymore where you can't directly monetize your stuff.

Disney has been genius in creating Disney+ to monetize their content and keep their Marvel and Star Wars universes moving forward.

I think a lot of us would be interested in a more robust HBO Max (or whatever) that could reboot and drive a lot of the DC characters in a more cohesive way.

[Matt_Fury]

I'll defend HBO Max.  It's a good service with tons of content.  Plus, since I have HBO through DirecTv all I had to do was download the app!  So glad it's on Roku as well!

[EdSolo]

DC's problem at this point is that they have already semi-rebooted with no true plans in sight.  JJ Abrams is doing a new Superman movie without Cavell.  Pattinson is Batman.  The Flash movie is supposedly still happening, but Cyborg has been booted.  Aquaman 2 is supposedly still happening.  They are making Black Adam and Shazam 2, which really is a waste.  Imagine Marvel saying, well we had some problem with Age of Ultron, so we're scrapping Infinity War, but her is Iternals and Shang-Chi, enjoy.

At this point, they are too far behind to completely reboot and start over, even if they tried to make Wandavision style shows.  Who wants to see yet another Superman or Batman origin story?  I think the MCU shows work in part because they started as movie characters.  So far they are smaller characters who never would have gotten this type of back story or focus in an ensemble piece.

Honestly, if DC were smart, I would movie towards a Justice League 2 based on Batman's end of the world dreams.  That seems far more interesting than anything they have on their slate.  The fact you have all these superheros and you have already changed actors on the two biggest doesn't bode well.  They released their team move four years ago and now have no plans for another is not a positive thing.  It isn't an easy world for movies in general right now.  Who knows how much longer the superhero boom can last in these conditions.

[Jeff]

Honestly, if DC were smart, I would movie towards a Justice League 2 based on Batman's end of the world dreams.

If things hadn't blown up with Snyder the first time, that's what would have happened. Sounds like that is all dead now though as everyone has basically moved on. Ben Affleck moved on when WB wouldn't let him do what he wanted in his Batman movie; DC is working a new (rumored to be black) Superman, WW84 was a mixed bag because of the COVID-HBOmax release, Cyborg got fired for basically calling out d-bags on the WB/JL set.

Even the DC TV shows have gotten stale and need a refresh.  Arrow is over, Batwoman was recast after one season (Season 2 isn't even over and there are more recasting rumors), The Flash has gotten very stale and repetitive, etc. 

[Matt_Fury]

Too bad WB doesn't realize they could do the Snyderverse movies as well as their current projects and work towards a Crisis on Infinite Earths story.

[EdSolo]

Too bad WB doesn't realize they could do the Snyderverse movies as well as their current projects and work towards a Crisis on Infinite Earths story.

Except they already did Crisis in the current Arrowverse of WB.

[JediJman]

I don't know, these are still really beloved characters by a lot of people.  If DC announced today that they were scraping everything to date and restarting with a cohesive plan for connected TV and movie across the Justice League or Titans I would be all in.  Part of the reason I don't bother with a lot of the DC stuff is that I can't keep track of which universe stuff is happening in.  I don't want "Legends" based stories that don't connect and constant recasts of the characters.  Give me something well thought out that ties into a bigger storyline and I'm in.  The current "strategy" feels like a cash grab for any random crap they manage to shell out. 

[Matt_Fury]

Too bad WB doesn't realize they could do the Snyderverse movies as well as their current projects and work towards a Crisis on Infinite Earths story.

Except they already did Crisis in the current Arrowverse of WB.

Like a lot of people....I've not watched 5 minutes of the shows on CW.

[JediJman]

I thought Flash and Arrow were pretty good in the early seasons, but haven't watched them in years or any of their other stuff.  I think Crisis would have been a fun ride seeing characters from a bunch of other DC shows and movies.  Curious to see if that's where Marvel is going with their multiverse storylines.