JediDefender.com Forums
Community => Watto's Junk Yard => Topic started by: Nicklab on December 5, 2014, 09:08 AM
-
It's confirmed. Benedict Cumberbatch will play Dr. Strange (http://marvel.com/news/movies/23754/benedict_cumberbatch_to_play_doctor_strange#ixzz3KyNkhio0).
-
Hey, if it prevents him from being in any of the new SW movies, I'm all for it.
-
Doctor Strange - Official Trailer #1 [HD] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPeS7c8oLDM&feature=share)
-
Looks pretty wild. Can anyone tell if it's Cumberbach saying the line about not believing in fairy tales? It'd be a crime if they made him drop his British accent for the role. But then he sounds normal British when he says "Why are you doing this?"...
Gonna get a lot of Matrix/Inception griping, I think.
-
Looks cool but it seems to me if you are going to film an origin story about Dr Strange you would at least need the Ancient One and Baron Mordo. If they can't even be bothered to cast those roles properly, why even bother to make Strange a middle aged white dude? Go ahead and turn him into an elderly Russian paraplegic or an albino Eskimo or whatever daffy mashup those obsequious writers can dream up.
Sorry, I know it is a tiresome rant at this point, I just will never understand the need to change things for no reason whatsoever. There was nothing about his backstory that was offensive or out of place for a modern setting.
-
Looks cool but it seems to me if you are going to film an origin story about Dr Strange you would at least need the Ancient One and Baron Mordo. If they can't even be bothered to cast those roles properly, why even bother to make Strange a middle aged white dude?
It is tiresome. And it's been explained. These characters were invented back when racism made diversity impossible. Disney/Marvel is using this opportunity to correct that error. They also hope to appeal to a wider, diverse audience for better financial success. So when the opportunity presents itself to cast someone as something other than a white male, they take it.
Strange, Stark, Thor - those characters are iconic. Casting against ethnicity doesn't fly as well in those cases (see Johnny Storm in Fan4astic). So you pick your battles.
If Mordo being black gets your panties in a bunch, I feel kinda bad for you.
-
Yeah, but if you're playing that game, how do you justify taking one of the few prominent Asian roles in the MU and re-casting with an impossibly WASPY white woman like Tilda Swinton? If the idea is to champion diversity, why replace a non-white actor with a white one? That just doesn't make sense to me. (I wont even go into the whole ageism thing)
That's where I am coming from with the whole change for the sake of change complaint. If it serves to drive the narrative in some way, that is one thing, but this example just seem capricious at best.
I do respect there are different, valid opinions on this, I just struggle to understand their (Hollywood's) logic sometimes.
-
Exactly. I am not against bringing more diversity into the roles, but eliminating an Asian role and adding an African American doesn't scream increased representation to me. It's just some BS Director's way to make the movie their own and drive PR by getting people to react. I don't get why this is prioritized over positive PR for finding a great likeness to the original source material, especially when you're making these B-List off shoot movies like Strange. RDJ is the perfect likeness of Tony Stark...that seemed to work out pretty well for everyone. I can't wait to see the new Heroes for Hire starring Melissa McCarthy as Power Man and her lesbian lover Kevin Hart (in drag) as a Mexican Billionaire Iron Fist.
-
There was an issue that popped up recently during the whole #OscarsSoWhite issue leading up the Academy Awards. Notably, that while there may be a lack of award worthy roles for African American actors, there are far fewer for Asian actors. And when it comes to Asian actors who work regularly in American film and television in notable roles, there's a much smaller group to draw from. So Asian actors may have more of a bone to pick about how roles are cast.
I tend to agree with Bill about the general casting issues. It seems important to try casting a lead actor who resembles a comic character. Casting a character like Thor, and you need someone who LOOKS like Thor who can fill the role. As for supporting roles? I think there's a lot more leeway that allows filmmakers to cast the actor who would work best in the role, rather than trying to cast someone by racial/gender/age demographics. Something like this popped up in a film that's currently in theaters that deals with drone warfare. Helen Mirren wound up with the role of a general in the British military, even though the role was originally slated for a male actor. The filmmakers felt that she was the best fit as an actor.
-
Yeah, but if you're playing that game, how do you justify taking one of the few prominent Asian roles in the MU and re-casting with an impossibly WASPY white woman like Tilda Swinton? If the idea is to champion diversity, why replace a non-white actor with a white one? That just doesn't make sense to me.
I'm not sure if this was a business decision or an artistic one. On the one hand, Tilda Swinton is an Oscar-winner that just about any director would kill to work with. But on the business side - one thing Marvel has been openly cautious about is casting Asians in stereotypical/racist Asian roles. There's legitimate beef with how Marvel portrayed Asians back in the 1960s and 1970s. And that's why The Mandarin wasn't played by an Asian guy. Marvel very may have concluded that Asian audiences would rather see a white or Indian person cast in a formerly racist Asian role than someone who is actually Asian. That might be more agreeable than seeing an Asian in the token wise monk role in an otherwise mostly-white cast.
-
Are Asians really offended by an Asian-monk character in a movie? I'm not trying to be flippant - I'd really like to know what different groups actually find offensive. I'm not offended when I see a white cowboy. If you expect to see a certain race/ethnicity for a character and they use someone white, I would think that's even more offensive, right? It's too bad we have to put so much effort into things like this. I'm not a big Strange fan, but I always thought the ancient one was pretty cool from what little I read (versus being an offensive stereotype).
-
I'm not offended when I see a white cowboy.
You might be though if the only time a white guy showed up in a movie was when the movie needed a cowboy... :-\
It's a fine line Disney is trying to walk - you don't want to take away minority roles... but at the same time they have to be careful with stereotypes. This 'wise old master' one is a good one. Do you go "Mr. Miyagi" and cast to type or do you do something different? Either way some segment is going to be upset in today's outrage culture.
I really like the way Marvel is doing things - you nail the look of the main guy (Thor, IM, Strange, Cap, etc) and then you play a bit with the smaller roles to make the movie world look more like today's real world and less like 60s' comic book world. That was kind of one of the very few things that Man of Steel got right with Fishburn/Perry White I thought.
-
Are Asians really offended by an Asian-monk character in a movie? I'm not trying to be flippant - I'd really like to know what different groups actually find offensive.
I'll defer to Disney, whom I sure has a stack of research 4 feet tall on the subject. But you have to understand they're dealing with source material that was pretty offensive...
(http://www.therobotspajamas.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/SH4.jpg)
So might Asians be offended to be cast as the token wise monk? Possibly. Even if that monk is a cool character.
-
Well, that's the Mandarin and we're talking about the Ancient One.
(http://www.chud.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/ancientone.jpg)
The movie is supposedly sticking to the comic origin, where Strange travels to Asia to learn mystical powers from the Ancient One. Rather than have an Asian play the guy from Asia (!), we're getting a rich white guy travelling to Asia where a powerful white woman will teach him the secret mysteries of an Asian culture. I have to think it's a lot more offensive to write an Asian out of an Asian role, but whatever.
-
Why didn't they just get Michelle Yeoh to play the ancient one? She was amazing in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
-
The movie is supposedly sticking to the comic origin, where Strange travels to Asia to learn mystical powers from the Ancient One. Rather than have an Asian play the guy from Asia (!), we're getting a rich white guy travelling to Asia where a powerful white woman will teach him the secret mysteries of an Asian culture. I have to think it's a lot more offensive to write an Asian out of an Asian role, but whatever.
Angry Asian Man doesn't seem too thrilled by it...
NICE TRY, MARVEL. 'DR. STRANGE' CASTING IS STILL WHITEWASHING (http://blog.angryasianman.com/2016/01/nice-try-marvel-dr-strange-casting-is.html)
TILDA SWINTON TEACHES DR. STRANGE THE MYSTICAL ASIAN STUFF (http://blog.angryasianman.com/2016/04/tilda-swinton-teaches-dr-strange.html)
-
Why didn't they just get Michelle Yeoh to play the ancient one? She was amazing in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
She's too Asian for the role. :-X
-
Because she's busy with the sequel.
-
Angry Asian Man doesn't seem too thrilled by it...
NICE TRY, MARVEL. 'DR. STRANGE' CASTING IS STILL WHITEWASHING (http://blog.angryasianman.com/2016/01/nice-try-marvel-dr-strange-casting-is.html)
TILDA SWINTON TEACHES DR. STRANGE THE MYSTICAL ASIAN STUFF (http://blog.angryasianman.com/2016/04/tilda-swinton-teaches-dr-strange.html)
That was a fun read, if for nothing other than this line, "As far as I can tell, the Mystical Asian Stuff includes out-of-body karate (hey, that rhymes), in which you can hit someone so hard, your body farts out a glowing version of yourself." ;D
-
Why the Ancient One is a white woman... (http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/42607/-doctor-strange-scribe-on-ancient-one-casting)
The Tibet v/s China angle didn't even occur to me. It's crazy the stuff they need to consider to keep from financial catastrophe.
-
Why the Ancient One is a white woman... (http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/42607/-doctor-strange-scribe-on-ancient-one-casting)
The Tibet v/s China angle didn't even occur to me. It's crazy the stuff they need to consider to keep from financial catastrophe.
That still doesn't really explain it. He just whines that someone would be complaining with whomever they selected. Are they not going to have her come from Tibet now? Seems like including Tibet at all would be upsetting to the Chinese versus whomever they decided to cast. I guess I don't know enough about the conflict there, but not seeing how making the Ancient One a white woman solves any of it.
-
His point is that it's impossible to "solve." There is no choice that'll make everyone happy, so you decide which damage you want to inflict on yourself. And they chose to upset "traditionalists" instead of upsetting the Chinese market.
That's probably the most financially sound decision, since it's unlikely a bunch of comic book geeks are going to skip Dr. Strange because Tilda Swinton is the Ancient One. If they'd cast someone from Tibet (following comic canon), then it's possible the Chinese government wouldn't even allow it to be released in their country.
FWIW, Tibet is disputed territory. China says it's part of China. Tibet claims independence. And ethnic Tibetans are not viewed favorably by many Chinese.
-
The New York Times picked this up, too. And their article also cited the concerns about stereotypes and tensions regarding China and Tibet. Tibet is a very touchy subject in China. Just look at how the Chinese government regards the Dalai Lama, one of the most peaceful men in the world, as an enemy of the state because of his advocacy for a free Tibet.
Having the Ancient One be Tibetan does run the risk of alienating the Chinese market. And from a business standpoint, the international box office has proven to be incredibly important in making a big budget film a financial success. And you'll probably also notice how two Iron Man films very deliberately avoided the casting of a Chinese actor in the role of the Mandarin. Disney/Marvel probably wants to play nice with such a huge marketplace.
-
Makes sense. It still feels wrong to me, but it's probably the best move for them financially.
I guess we won't be seeing any Asian actors in any mainstream movies until this gets resolved. ::)
-
I agree that it sucks if this sort of casting decision was made based purely because of direction from the studio. Marvel has had a good track record of honoring the source material pretty well.
There's also Tilda Swinton. The woman is an amazing actor! And I think people will probably be impressed by her portrayal of the character. She has put together so many consistently strong performances, and I don't have any reason to doubt her in this case.
As for Asian actors in key roles? I think if there's a fairly positive role for an Asian actor to play, and they can find the right actor? I can see them going in that direction. Funny thing though about one Marvel related film that featured a lot of Asian actors - The Wolverine. Granted, that story took place in Japan, and it called for a largely Japanese cast. But one of the key villains, Viper, had her ethnicity changed for the movie. Viper was an Asian woman in the comics, but depicted as a Russian in the movie.
-
Dalai Lama is a great point. An aged, learned, spiritual wise man who happens to be Asian. He is no more a racist caricature than the Ancient One. It's not like they drew the guy with buck teeth and thick glasses. There is a long tradition of the learned wise man in eastern mysticism. I just don't think the character as was originally written was so awful that they had to totally reimagine him.
The Tibet thing is something I had not considered, but I feel like they could just be vague about it and say "the Himalayas" or something like that. That's not anything that has to be called out specifically and doesn't impact the story either way.
Definitely a lot more aspects to this issue than you would think at first glance. One way they could have side stepped the whole thing would have been to skip the origin story altogether and just hit the ground running. Shake up the usual formula.
-
I like that they're making it an origin story and not departing too far from the comics. As has been discussed before, if you're going to radically change the characters and story, then just call it something else (looking at you Fantastic Four reboot). I'm with you though - I don't know how casting an Asian person is somehow offensive to the Chinese. This might be a case of Marvel addressing a sensitive issue without really understanding if it's a concern for the audience. There are a dozen ways to have cast an Asian and made things more vague if the concern was really China vs. Tibet.
-
I don't know how casting an Asian person is somehow offensive to the Chinese. This might be a case of Marvel addressing a sensitive issue without really understanding if it's a concern for the audience. There are a dozen ways to have cast an Asian and made things more vague if the concern was really China vs. Tibet.
You don't know how casting an Asian person is somehow offensive because you haven't rigorously studied the issue. Disney has poured probably hundreds of thousands of dollars into market research on casting, and thus THEY KNOW exactly how casting an Asian person in this role is offensive. They know in excruciating detail. They have reams of spreadsheets detailing projected losses for every possible casting scenario. Disney doesn't do things half-assed.
For us to speculate on what is or isn't offensive is silly, honestly. We have no idea.
-
I have some idea - I took an Asian-American studies course in college and have Asian friends that I've talked to about this. I also work in market research, so I know the data doesn't always tell the whole story (or the right story). I don't have spreadsheets of casting options or focus groups with the Chinese, but I can tell you that excluding Asians from traditional, non-offensive Asian roles can also alienate moviegoers.
I'm sure Tilda will be great and no one will care once the movie is out. It's just an unfortunate scenario in my opinion.