JediDefender.com Forums
Multimedia => The Original Trilogy => Topic started by: Reid on June 3, 2006, 06:40 PM
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I was watching ROTJ yesterday, and I wondered something. Why would the Empire deploy Speederbikes on Endor? As evidenced by the Speederbike Chase scene, if the Scouts make one wrong move, one flinch, they're toast. It would make more sense to deploy Speederbikes on Hoth, as it is open, flat, plains, and the Empire could cover a lot of ground quickly. But the Empire did not. Tatooine is another place where the Empire could've benefited from Speederbikes, as they could've covered more ground riding Speederbikes than slow, gassy Dewbacks. So why did they have Speederbikes on Endor?
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I bet it's like Goldilocks and the three bears...
The first planet, Tatooine, was too HOT.
The second planet, Hoth, was too COLD.
But the third planet, Endor was juuuuuust right.
;)
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Why would the Empire deploy Speederbikes on Endor?
Because if they didn't, the middle of the movie would be even more boring than it already is.
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Tattoine was a no no because the sand jams up mechanical stuff to easy at least thats what I read somewhere.
Hoth they did but they didn't show it in the movie, becuase I remember reading somewhere (probably wookiepedia) that they use modifed scout armor for the bikes on hoth.
Endor, they crashed cause the guys turned around to see if Luke or Leia had crashed ::) You know traveling at 200 miles an hour plus and then turning around in a high density forest... Idiots.
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Tatooine... There's no evidence to say Speederbikes AREN'T in-use on Tatooine besides not seeing biker scouts in the film... The troops out in the desert we see on a patrol and we see deployment via drop ships/shuttles... I'd rather take a short cruise in an A/C shuttle than a long ride out to the dune sea on a bike...
That's not to say that routine patrols for the outskirts of settlements, or that patrols between homesteads aren't routinely done with a Biker Scout team, to maintain the peace.
I buy absolutely NOTHING about sand damaging equipment. It didn't damage swoops or land/air speeders, so speederbikes wouldn't be adversely effected either... Or so one would think, despite what some half-assed EU maybe says.
Hoth... Supposedly Hoth did have the support of some Scouts, however where would they be effective?
On an open field, a speederbike would be a riper target for anti-infantry fire... The bike's are relatively fragile, and unshielded for the trooper aboard... The vehicle's armament is weak at best as well, it's not an offensive weapon in the slightest, but as the name implies, a speederbike is the tool of Scouts and Couriers/Liasons... It's fast, maneuverable, and that's about it. It's good for patrol or pursuit of someone, but not for mainline fighting.
If they're used on Hoth I'd assume it's either that they're used sparingly or they're used to simply keep flanks clear of possible ambush... Or possibly to eyeball visually anti-armor traps such as mines or whatnot that the walker's sensors maybe aren't able to pick-up... They're not front-line fighting, but maybe flanking the approaching walkers/armor to make sure it doesn't bite it on some well-layed prparations.
Endor... Where we actually see Speederbikes in the film, we see them doing the job they're designed for. Distant patrol.
I've always held that the film indicates that the Alliance saboteurs land VERY far from the main complex the Empire has built... The complex, an area of many miles deforested and fortified with anti-air, anti-armor, and other emplacements to protect the shield dish, is the goal of the strike team, and they've got a hike to get there... The Empire's protecting outwardly with roving random Biker Scout patrols in teams of two. They have the bikes to cover the distance from their base to their scouting points, and they have to not really engage the enemy but instead report the enemy... As Luke himself warned Han to be quiet as their warning the main base would hose the operation. He also pushed early for jamming the coms of the Scouts he and Leia engaged, forcing them into battle instead of running away to tattle.
On Endor, the trees are a threat or hinderance to every weapon the Empire has really... Only the basic soldier has an advantage... AT-ST's fall prey to the traps the Ewoks had worked on (presumeably) in advance for some time, planning some kind of fight with the Empire on their own that just gets caught up with the Rebel Strike team when they meet them... And AT-AT's are simply hindered by not being able to have clearer lines of sight to the ground for targets, or simply moving in the trees, so they're relegated to the deforested area where (ultimately) the Empire expects the attack anyway on the main complex. The ST's have to move with caution to be effective due to the trees.
So that leaves the Speederbike for scouting and security. It works too... The bikes seem to be easy to handle to avoid the trees, especially with expert training which one can assume the Scouts have, and not to mention that they don't expect to be pursued, they'd simply have to return to their base and make a communication that they've made contact with Rebel forces.... For that, the bikes seem to work well. Luke/Leia both handled speederbikes like pro's on Endor too, just on a whim, so they mustn't be too difficult to deal with.
If you're doing just simple patrolling and if your mission profile is to not engage but to return to base and report contact, then I think the speeder bike's the ideal tool for the job.
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Tattoine was a no no because the sand jams up mechanical stuff to easy at least thats what I read somewhere.
I dunno what you're reading, but it's wrong.
During Attack of the Clones, Anakin rides a Speeder Bike through the dunes of Tattooine in search of his mother. Count Dooku flies a speeder bike across Geonisis, where the terrain is similar if not worse. In A New Hope, you can see a speeder bike or two blazing through Mos Eisley, as well.
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Am I so wrong Ewok when it comes from the Man himself.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/creature/dewback/index.html
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From "the man" - aka Starwars.com :
A dewback is able to withstand the heat and dust that often leads to mechanical breakdown in modern high-tech conveyances.
How does this translate into what you are claiming? That that the Imperials could not make use of Speeder Bikes due to the elements?
Like Jesse said :
I buy absolutely NOTHING about sand damaging equipment. It didn't damage swoops or land/air speeders, so speederbikes wouldn't be adversely effected either... Or so one would think, despite what some half-assed EU maybe says.
And yes, the Star Wars Databanks count in my mind as Half-assed EU... This is the same source that says the 501st served in every major on-screen campaign during the Clone Wars, and Rebellion.
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Ok sorry i was just going by what Lucas has on his site. Jeeze >:(
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Lucas didn't say that, LFL did... ;) There's a huge difference actually.
But the way I read that, it simply is the equivalent of the German Wermacht using horses to pull equipment out of convenience... Dewbacks don't break down ever or need maintenance really... repulsor craft will eventually need parts or fuel... It's not that the speederbike CAN'T or even ISN'T in use then... It's used wisely is all. Dewbacks to get out to the escape pod (that was thought to be nothing more than a malfuction and unimportant) would be a good bet then... Slow, but why waste the fuel on the bikes, or the wear and tear... It's easy.
In a more modern analogy though, our forces (US) in the desert currently aren't abandoning M1 Abraham's tanks, dirtbikes, Humvees, or other modern weaponry for camels... :)
The M1 or Humvee both are sustaining unique problems to the environment they're deployed though of course. Same as if they'd been deployed in Korea during the winter time and would be suffering from the unique climate there that would put stress of a different kind on the vehicles...
Speederbikes on Tatooine work fine enough and are useful tools... Dewbacks are nifty too though, and available, but Dewbacks make pretty horrid patrol and scout craft without a doubt. :)
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Hoth... Supposedly Hoth did have the support of some Scouts, however where would they be effective?
They could be effective in rushing the trenches and dropping charges, I'd imagine. Or even lancing troops out of their trenches, similar to what bikers did during the Clone Wars.
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The tactic looks nice in the cartoon, but strikes me as one of those things that is growing quickly outdated in terms of military conflict. Like it was maybe the tactic of decades ago, but "not today" or something...
The other thought is that it wasn't a common tactic at all, and just a flanking move pulled by Durge to throw the steadily advancing repulbic off... He has surprise on his side and all, otherwise it's a dismal failure of a maneuver.
On HOth, it's an open plain between the trenches (we see) and the advancing Empire... The weaponry in Star Wars seems accurate to me, so a "cavalry charge" of sorts seems much like they were in World War I... Dismal failures for the most part.
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From "the man" - aka Starwars.com :
A dewback is able to withstand the heat and dust that often leads to mechanical breakdown in modern high-tech conveyances.
How does this translate into what you are claiming? That that the Imperials could not make use of Speeder Bikes due to the elements?
Like Jesse said :
I buy absolutely NOTHING about sand damaging equipment. It didn't damage swoops or land/air speeders, so speederbikes wouldn't be adversely effected either... Or so one would think, despite what some half-assed EU maybe says.
And yes, the Star Wars Databanks count in my mind as Half-assed EU... This is the same source that says the 501st served in every major on-screen campaign during the Clone Wars, and Rebellion.
Oh look... the Star Wars Databanks are half assed EU stories. (http://www.starwars.com/databank/updates/news20050812.html)
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The tactic looks nice in the cartoon, but strikes me as one of those things that is growing quickly outdated in terms of military conflict. Like it was maybe the tactic of decades ago, but "not today" or something...
The other thought is that it wasn't a common tactic at all, and just a flanking move pulled by Durge to throw the steadily advancing repulbic off... He has surprise on his side and all, otherwise it's a dismal failure of a maneuver.
On HOth, it's an open plain between the trenches (we see) and the advancing Empire... The weaponry in Star Wars seems accurate to me, so a "cavalry charge" of sorts seems much like they were in World War I... Dismal failures for the most part.
The charge of Durge on the Republic (purely on a physical level) is like that of the Polish Cavalry (the most fearsome in the world) on the Nazi's in WWII*. History says it shouldn't have worked. Trust me...I know this. ;)
***If you're at all puzzled by this then Google it.
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Yes, it's very similar really... Technology (on both sides, one of the only real differences) being on the Republic's side and Durge's attack wheeling around a rear left flank it seemed that was left somewhat exposed... At least that's how I interpreted it since it was Durge coming in on the left side of the artillery batteries...
The other difference is that Kenobi had his own "Cavalry"... Perhaps they were a scout unit or whatnot, but definitely had a lot of Clones on bikes to throw at Durge to halt his attack...
Ultimately then Durge's attack failed, but it did seem reminiscent of charges made between the two world wars... Lots of carnage ensued for certain...
The big similarity I see is that Durge's attack appeared to be a sneak-attack from a relatively unprotected portion of the line where Kenobi was overseeing the combat operations... The Polish Cavalry had abandoned traditional cavalry charges for the most part, and only assaulted infantry in their final charge and weren't up against German armor save for some light items.
They ambushed German armor successfully in other engagements though by disabling the enemy rather than inflicting kills... THat seems a viable option for the speederbikes in Star Wars, though large batallions of cavalary wouldn't be much "surprise" against armor... They'd have to work in small teams to ambush say an AT-TE...
It's interesting really though to see a separate parallel though, that armor falls prey to booby traps... Ambush, guerilla warfare, traps, and small harassement efforts rather than all-out armored conflict, can have a much more devastating effect on armor... The POlish Cavalry adapted to that, and basically abandoned their cavalry tactics they'd known till their last charge on a relatively unguarded infantry column. Then the old tactics worked almost just as they would've a 100 or 200 years prior.
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BF has speeder bikes on Tatooine.
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Battlefront you mean?
BF is, in my opinion, very loose source material for Star Wars... A vehicle in it may look cool (the skiffs for instance) but as far as what's in it being good sources to cite in a discussion or debate, I think it falls sort of short in credibility... That's not to say it's wrong though as the films have established that repulsor craft of all types work on Tatooine anyway, but Battlefront really hasn't ever struck me as something that would be good back-up to one's argument.
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Not in the least, as Battlefront also features the Rebel Alliance boarding Imperial Star Destroyers in Republic LAAT Gunships.
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Exactly... What I'd say BF is good for is some reference material from time to time... The battle skiff for instance is a cool design, it's plausible as a field piece for either side... It's cool. But at the same time vehicles materialize before your eyes on planets, they're readily available to either side to just hop in and operate...
Plus I'd take issue with the look and style of character designs... Fleet Troopers are only seen running in battle with ehavy weapons and no camo, while Commandoes are the grunts... Pilots are running around assembling field necessities that an engineering unit would do... And that's not even getting into BF2 with its half-hearted clone designs that aren't specific to planets and such as they should be...
BF is just something I look at and don't look to at all for hard "facts" to pull into debate. There's some cool designs I'd incorporate, but BF hardly had a single-player storyline to it, and that it did have was really hollow at best. It's not like a game like say X-Wing or Force Commander where story is integral to the game... Where elements that erupt in battle are plot points and such. In BF2 Obi-Wan Kenobi just all of a sudden runs into Grievous in a hangar... story is out the window, and with that I'd say that the game's credibility as a source also goes out the window. The battle skiff is cool and believable as a weapon in any setting almost but that's the only kinda crap I'd pull from that game as something I'd want in "my" Star Wars. If that makes sense.
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This (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/swillacorey/) is the ******* stupidest story of all time. I'll just go on assuming she was another one of the "Star Whores". I hate how all these stories have to criss-cross one another and end up with everyone "bein' friends"...it makes the "wretched hive of scum and villainy" into the ******* happy hands club.
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This (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/swillacorey/) is the ******* stupidest story of all time. I'll just go on assuming she was another one of the "Star Whores". I hate how all these stories have to criss-cross one another and end up with everyone "bein' friends"...it makes the "wretched hive of scum and villainy" into the ******* happy hands club.
What does this have to do with speeder bikes on Endor???
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Absolutely nothing. But I was actually replying to this post...
From "the man" - aka Starwars.com :
A dewback is able to withstand the heat and dust that often leads to mechanical breakdown in modern high-tech conveyances.
How does this translate into what you are claiming? That that the Imperials could not make use of Speeder Bikes due to the elements?
Like Jesse said :
I buy absolutely NOTHING about sand damaging equipment. It didn't damage swoops or land/air speeders, so speederbikes wouldn't be adversely effected either... Or so one would think, despite what some half-assed EU maybe says.
And yes, the Star Wars Databanks count in my mind as Half-assed EU... This is the same source that says the 501st served in every major on-screen campaign during the Clone Wars, and Rebellion.
Oh look... the Star Wars Databanks are half assed EU stories. (http://www.starwars.com/databank/updates/news20050812.html)
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Ohhh, ok, gotcha. :)