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The 1st to hit the bay.
SDCC 2009 Star Wars 12" Luke Han Stormtrooper
You missed a dozen posts ago where we demonstrated that the only way Reese gets the photo Sarah has taken at the end of T1 is if she's impregnated by Reese first. The photo proves Reese was always John Connor's father.
No, I read that, but re-read my last paragraph and see if that makes sense. Here's a possible "chronology of events"
- Sarah Connor has a baby with some other guy. Don't know who, don't care.
- Skynet takes over and John Connor grows to become the leader of the human resistance for whatever reason
- Skynet decides to send a T-800 back in time, so Connor sends one of his best men, Kyle Reese to protect him
- Reese travels back in time and impregnates Sarah before she gets pregnant from someone else
- Reese dies, Sarah gets her picture taken and heads off to raise John
At this point, he does not have a picture of her and the future is radically altered. John is not the man he was from a DNA perspective, but he is prepared from birth to become the leader of the resistance. Knowing it is his destiny, he makes choices that lead him to the leadership role his previous self discovered more naturally.
- In the future, this different John remains a threat, so Skynet sends a T-800 back in time.
- At this point, John knows Reese is his father, so he sends Reese back after him. Again.
- This time, John knows its his dad and he gives Reese the picture. Maybe this version of John is sentimental because of his different DNA or maybe its just that he now knows its his dad or maybe he just didn't have a picture of his mom in the initial timeline because that John didn't know what was coming.
This is the point at which we see Terminator 1. From this point on, there is no reason for anything to change. Reese has the picture, saves Sarah, dies. John is born, becomes the leader, knows Reese is the father, gives him the picture, sends him back in time with the picture. Its an endless loop from that point that has no reason to change unless something else in the timeline causes a change.
I've always thought the intent was something similar to this and I find it fairly plausible (outside of machines taking over and time travel, etc.!), but that's just my opinion. We do know from the TV show that history can be completely re-written. Hence the T3 storyline becoming null and void when Sarah avoids her death by jumping into the future.
It's not a flash forward, though. He's imagining it as he's talking to Sarah about the war, IIRC.
We're all aware it's not possible. Logically John Connor had to exist before Reese went back in time. But the only way that the photo of Sarah Connor exists for Reese to fall in love with is if he went back in time and impregnated her. It's a plot hole. And you can't explain it away by claiming it was a similar photo. It is what it is... a flaw.
Essentially, a "John Conner", son of Sarah Conner, had to exist in order for T-1 to take place. I can be debateable as to whether the John Conner who sent back Reese is the same as the one that Sarah is pregnant with at the end of T-1. Myself, I would say it is impossible since Reese would never have gone back in time without John sending him.
That's one of my big problems with things. If it's a different John Connor... 75% genetically different... how could he be just as successful leading the resistance? He's a whole other person. Skynet already succeeded in killing John Connor by preventing his conception. I guess the new John Connor was pretty effective himself, but it makes you look at things in a whole different way.
And I've just thought of a big fly in the ointment...
How could Reese have the photo of Sarah Connor that was taken with her pregnant with his child? That photo he fell in love with? It was the same exact photo that was taken at the end of the film. That photo could only exist after he went back in time. So that would be indicative of a circular time loop... Reese was always the father of John Connor. The photo proves it.
It is possible that the events of T1 (the parts shown in the future) could have been the second time Reese was sent back in order to have the same picture, or could just be a coincidence that a very similar picture was taken in both timelines. This is a chicken and the egg quandry really. There is no reason for Reese to go back in time until the Skynet sends back Arnold. Hence, the John Conner from T2 would never have been created until Reese goes back in time. One has to assume that there was a John Conner that lead the resistance who sent Reese back thus changing that "present" time. Also, I don't thank you can really calculated the genetic differences...he would be at least 50% different to as much as 100% if Sarah happened to give him the other copy of every chromosome.
As for T4, I believe the original intent was for it to be a sequel to T3 since it appears John will be with the daughter of the General from T3. However, looking at the previews, it seems that John has no idea about the human looking Terminators. That would lead me to believe that this could be a prequel of T-1 where this John Conner was not fathered by Reese, but I don't think the dates match up, so we'll have to wait and see.
Ed
Reese only goes back in time ONCE.
I think you have the whole premise of Terminator 1 messed up. Here it is in a very short nutshell.
Some where in the future - Skynet is loosing the war, they are on the verge of defeat. They send T-800 back in time to kill Sarah Conor the mother of John Conor to keep the leader of the resistance from ever being born (not realizing the Grandfather Paradox, being that if they don't do that Skynet will never exist).
T-800 fails it's mission and is destroyed in a warehouse of Cyberdyne. Reese's one night with Sarah results in the conception of John Conor. Picture taken in desert, that picture survives on to be the picture given to Reese in the future by John so that way he knows what Sarah looks like when he is sent back to save Sarah.
1997
It wasn't a similar photo, it was the same exact photo. And it's impossible that Sarah Connor would have been driving through the desert pregnant with John at that exact moment the photo was taken had she not already survived the attack by the T-800. She'd be a waitress. The only possible conclusion is that John Connor was always Reese's son. And that's just a huge plot hole that can't be logically resolved.
Essentially, a "John Conner", son of Sarah Conner, had to exist in order for T-1 to take place. I can be debateable as to whether the John Conner who sent back Reese is the same as the one that Sarah is pregnant with at the end of T-1. Myself, I would say it is impossible since Reese would never have gone back in time without John sending him.
That's one of my big problems with things. If it's a different John Connor... 75% genetically different... how could he be just as successful leading the resistance? He's a whole other person. Skynet already succeeded in killing John Connor by preventing his conception. I guess the new John Connor was pretty effective himself, but it makes you look at things in a whole different way.
And I've just thought of a big fly in the ointment...
How could Reese have the photo of Sarah Connor that was taken with her pregnant with his child? That photo he fell in love with? It was the same exact photo that was taken at the end of the film. That photo could only exist after he went back in time. So that would be indicative of a circular time loop... Reese was always the father of John Connor. The photo proves it.
I don't understand what you're asking? I didn't say that John existed before Reese went back in time, I'm saying that in order for John to exist, Reese had to go back in time. So those three things had to have happened in order for there to be a John Connor. Everything else after the first Terminator movie could be scrapped if the writers of Salvation were so inclined.
Wasn't directed toward you specifically, just a general question that's confused the piss out of me for years now. How could John send back Reese to father John? I mean, John had to exist at some point from some other father, or how else could John be there to send Reese back originally? Doesn't make any sense to me.
SORT OF SPOILER
Does anyone think that maybe Shirley Manson and John Henry could be "good" machines in the future and the other group of machines that has now shown up are the "bad" ones?
MORE SPOILERS
I knew it.
I thought the "sex" scene between John and Cameron was odd.
And finally what the hell happened at the end? I'm not sure my understanding is correct.
Just watched it, it was awesome. Are there rouge Terminators, good & bad? Me thinks so, Weaver might be a good T-1001 & creating a good metal of John Henry. A bad Terminator showing up at Weaver's place for what, her elimination/termination. As for Derek, didn't see that coming. Guess that explains his move to a new series.
Still nothing really confirmed from Fox that the series has been cancelled, could be they are waiting in the wings seeing what the ratings are with these last episodes. Will see next week what happens with the last of the season with "Born to Run".
