Lord of the Rings

[Nicklab]

So if that is definitely the case, where are the epic films like "The Odyssey", or "The Illiad"?

[Angry Ewok]

Greg(g) is just a stupid 16 year old kid with too much time on his hands.

Anycrap, about Jackson -

The difference between Jackson and just about every other director out there is that Jackson seems to be a fan of the subject of the movies he's working on. Sort of like George Lucas in 1977, Jackson gives a damn about how the movies turns out, not how much the movie turns out. Maybe if George Lucas was still a fan of his creation in 1999, we'd have seen a fantastic Episode 1. Just my Thoughts.

[Fettish Sez Thanks]

I'm with you. It's kind of sad, because after totally digesting the LOTR Trilogy, and Star Wars today, I've had this epiphany that's making me realize how cheated I feel with the PT, and it's making me almost totally Anti-SW.

Can't say I don't like it though, it's made for some heated debates.

[BigDumbWookiee]

ROTK pushed me over the threshold in regards to how I feel about the Prequel Trilogy. A lot of love and thought was obviously put into creating LOTR, something that seemingly cant be said about the PT. Even without comparing the PT to LOTR, the PT movies still just aren't thought evoking, nor do they bring out the same emotions as the OT.

I hope all of this success doesn't spoil Peter Jackson. I'd hate to see The Hobbit turn out like the PT. Although I very sincerely doubt that would ever happen, and it's good to know that pretty much everyone involved in LOTR wants to be part of The Hobbit.

[Darby]

The only thing really missing from the PT is heart.  The OT and obivously LOTR have it in spades, but for all the energy Lucas devotes to the technical side, if he spared not even half that for the story and characters, these would be vastly different films.  By different I mean better, of course.  

[Brian]

Its funny to me that many of you are posting this about the PT, because I have been feeling the same way lately...especially after seeing ROTK on Saturday.  That movie was, once again, amazing.  Personally, I thought all three films were perfect...and would definitely rank them behind only the OT as my favorite movies of all time.  Although I am most definitely still looking forward to Episode III, I think it is kind of obvious anymore that the LOTR trilogy really puts the PT to shame.  For me, at least, it evokes the same type of "magic" that the Star Wars OT had.  I am still a Star Wars fan, first and foremost, but dedication to that aside, I think most would admit that the LOTR movies are much better than what we have seen with the PT.  It has even made me question my collecting (which is off-topic a bit here, sorry), and consider collecting OT-only (for the most part), and picking up a few more LOTR items.  I probably wouldn't be able to do that, and most likely will be there at midnight for Episode III toys, but it does make me consider it at times.  I don't think I've ever been "taken away" by movies as much as the Star Wars OT, and the LOTR trilogy.  Anyways...to sum it up...great movie, and a great ending to the trilogy.  I agree with those that posted above, it was kind of sad to see it end.

[JediMAC]

Greg(g) is just a stupid 16 year old kid with too much time on his hands.

18 actually...  

Looks like a lot of you are reiterating what I said after first watching FOTR, and again after seeing TTT (and obviously even more now with ROTK) - that the LOTR Trilogy was everything that I was hoping and expecting the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy to be, but it unfortunately wasn't.  Not even close.  This is my new Trilogy.  The PT Trilogy barely even counts in my book.  But the OT is still on top by a hair, just due to the nostalgia, and the quarter century connection that I've had with it.  I just pray that good ol' Uncle George doesn't tinker with the OT any further, ala the Special Editions, but I'm afraid "the artist's painting" is still yet to be finalized...  Just give me the ORIGINAL OT on DVD, and then tinker with it all you want!  That's all I ask...

I think pretty much my only interest in the Prequels so far, is just that they are a part of the Star Wars saga as a whole, and bring to light some of the back story for the OT.  But if the OT was never released, and just the Prequels were, I probably wouldn't care much more for them than I do any other Summer blockbuster, like Spiderman.  And I most definitely would not be collecting any Star Wars toys, collectibles, or various other stuff.

Brian, though I'm not entirely at the "collect only OT" point since I'm still a 4" completist with everything, I have scaled back most of my other Star Wars collecting subsets to only OT - like Legos, Action Fleet/Micro Machines, and several others.  Still sticking with the Prequel 4"ers though, despite a few times when I considered giving them the axe too.

Those are some good points that Brad made there as well.  Jackson cares about his creation.  He also cares what the fans think of his creation.  Lucas has definitely shown that he doesn't care much what the fans think, simply by not releasing the original versions of the OT on DVD.  Jackson wants so badly to tell the full stories, and to tell them right, that he's been releasing 3 - 3.25 hour movies, only to follow them up with even longer extended edition DVDs.  That says everything to me right there!

Can you even imagine Lucas contemplating such a thing?  No way.  He won't even go beyond the dreaded 2.25 hour mark for his movies, which is downright sad considering there's so much more story to be told, and characters and subplots to more properly develop.  It honestly makes me angry, disappointed, and even embarrassed to see what Peter Jackson brings to the fans versus what Lucas gives us (with the Prequels).  It's as lopsided a contest as could be!  Not to mention Jackson had the balls to film his entire Trilogy at once, and can manage to pump 'em out at one per year, while lucas needs 3 years a piece, just to give all the computer guys time to creat 75% of his movies.

A lot of people say that Lucas just uses the Prequels as a giant ad for his line of toys.  I don't think that's really true.  I think he uses it as a giant ad for what he can do as far as CG filmmaking goes.  He likes to show off his special effects, completely CG environments, and his CG characters - which pale in comparison to Gollum in LOTR.  I feel like I'm watching a cartoon much of the time with the Prequels.  As good as some of the stuff looks, I'm constantly reminding myself that none of it's really even there...

LOTR:  Good.  Very good.

SW Prequels:  Bad.  Very bad.

SW OT:  

[Scott]

Saw it yesterday (finally ), great work as described above very well by everyone.

Instead of repeating my Thoughts? on the movie itself I thought I'd share two or three movie theater experiences.

We were in my wife hometown in rural Minnesota population of around 3000.  We went to the matinee yesterday at 4:00 and have went to other movies there (Spiderman, Episode II with her cousins)  So I thought we wouldn't have to worry about getting tickets etc.  Boy was I wrong....the show was PACKED, on a Sunday afternoon in podunk Minnesota.    I was awestruck, I remember Titanic being like that back in the day but nothing else even comes close

The movie started (Harry Potter, Punisher and The Craptacular looking Mask 2 were the only trailers I remembered) and the lady behind me starting whispering to her husband in the first scene "Who's that now"  "What did he do again" etc.  I almost blew a gasket, but luckily for her she shut up after that and what could have been a horrible experience turned into a pretty fun and memorable afternoon.

People applauded at the end, it was fun and showed to me the broad appeal that these movies have...my hats off to Peter Jackson and everyone else involved with the making of these movies...I just think of it how lucky we were to be around to see and appreciated 2 master Franchises come to life in our life time

I also want address the whole Hobbits are gay vibe I've seen in a bunch of threads around the net...I didn't see or get that at all.  I saw it as Sam and Frodo sharing a bond that would never, ever be broken.  They had gone to hell and survived, something that changed them for the rest of their lives and only they themselves knew that.  Tolkein was a WWI vet and I think that was what he was trying to convey in the whole Fellowship/friendship/love bond that they all shared.  People will think what they want to think but I think that whole thought is pretty asinine.

I'll also admit to shedding some tears, which I will proudly add to my list, first during the CHiPs  scene and second during the "You bow to noone" scene.

[Morgbug]

Like the rest of the geeks in the crowd, I too found myself drawing comparisons with LOTR and the SW OT/PT.  

I confess I had to sit too close to the screen, so some of ROTK was lost on me in a blur of really big, well, blurry things.  Unfortunate to be sure.  

Clearly the LOTR trilogy has characters with heart, something seemingly lacking in the PT.  But I differ somewhat in my opinions, at least as of today and some reflection last evening.  

LOTR is clearly an engaging saga with well defined good and evil.  This was evident in the OT.  With the PT, we seem to lose the evil characters quite quickly, Maul and Jango, so we cannot see them evolve.  Similarly, the already evil characters we already know are kind of boring in the PT.  Oh, we know Palpatine will be one nasty dude fairly shortly and I really hope that is brought to the fore in III, but Saruman is the parallel.  No waiting,no (non-existent) suspense to see the evil.  Saruman is there, he bad, end o story.  Gollum is a much more interesting contrast.  

I found myself last night thinking that the LOTR saga in some ways lacked a defining hero.  Now before you beat me with sticks, it's only my opinion.  Legolas (pretty) and Gimli (not) make for a nifty duo and some fine comic relief.  Frodo is the tragic lead and the rest of the Hobbits evolve quite spectacularly on film.  Gandalf is Obi, mature but active and not self sacrificing Obi.  Aragorn (the stud) is fine, but just seemed to lack dynacism to me in this last film.  

Tangentially I think we all forget the schlockiness of the OT.  It was, as Lucas intended, a throwback to the Saturday afternoon sequels of yesteryear.  Sure, it was updated with magnificent special effects, but it was the story that captured your attention.  The PT sorely lacks that.  Yes, we get to see the evolution of Anakin, but apparently that is not enough.  It's cool to watch that, but we need more and that is what's missing.  Mace is a cool character and Yoda is a treat to watch but other than that, they seem to be disconnected and drag, all the while lacking heart.  

To end this pointless ramble I will point out something.  When I went to see The Phantom Menace (which I typicaly rank last) I was pumped.  It was so cool.  As I watched the movie, I was pumped.  All the way to Vader's breathing at the end of the credits, I was pumped.  The second time I saw it I was pumped.  I loved so many parts of it.  It's only after long hours of reflection that I did not enjoy it so much.  

Anyway, yeah, what Matt said.

[Brian]

Brian, though I'm not entirely at the "collect only OT" point since I'm still a 4" completist with everything, I have scaled back most of my other Star Wars collecting subsets to only OT - like Legos, Action Fleet/Micro Machines, and several others.  Still sticking with the Prequel 4"ers though, despite a few times when I considered giving them the axe too.

I haven't quite "jumped ship" yet either on the prequel 4" figures, and I doubt that I will when it actually comes down to it.  Actually with what we have seen coming for 2004, it probably won't be much of an issue as it looks to be a strong OT year anyways (which is fine with me).

I have really enjoyed reading everyone's opinions on this LOTR vs. SW (PT or OT) debate.  Although, when it comes down to it, they are different movies...they are still the same in many ways too.  I think the comparisons are obviously drawn because LOTR is the kind of magical trilogy that we had in our youth with the OT.  The Star Wars OT will always be first with me, but LOTR has gained ground, and will probably always be right behind it in my favorite movies.  I kind of agree with the thought that the PT is good for providing backstory, etc.  To be honest, I don't know if I would have noticed some of the shortcomings of the PT so far if it wasn't for Lord of the Rings.  I'm not the biggest Phantom of the Menace fan, but I was all about Attack of the Clones when it first came out.  I thought it was one of the best Star Wars movies at first, and continued to go back to see it in the theatre.  Then the year went on, and eventually I got to the Two Towers.  That made me realize how much AOTC was really lacking, after seeing a movie like TT.  I still enjoy AOTC, but to be honest, I don't watch the DVD all that much.  If anything, I'm sticking in OT VHS tapes, or obviously, the LOTR movies as well.

I am glad to see others feel the same way as I do.  At first, when I saw the Two Towers, I almost felt "bad" as a Star Wars fan thinking or saying that I have been enjoying the Lord of the Rings movies better than the Prequel Trilogy.  I know that might sound silly, but for some reason I felt like I should like Star Wars more...because I'm a Star Wars fan.  I realize now that the magic, for me, truly lies in the Original Trilogy, and in the present day, with the LOTR trilogy.  Don't get me wrong, I'm still really looking forward to Episode III, and I'll be there opening day, but no matter how good it is, I still don't think it will help the whole Prequel Trilogy live up to what we were looking for.  Sometimes I think that the media influences people's thoughts that "Star Wars sucks" as it seems we have heard more often with the PT, but the fact that they don't compare to the OT, or to their competition of today (LOTR).  Sometimes you can almost see that people are longing for the OT-style, as it seems more people like the prequels as more OT characters are glimpsed or introduced.  Obi-Wan, Yoda, the droids, and soon to be Chewbacca....I think remind us of the "good ole days".

Anyways...I'm rambling now...but it has been nice reading some of your thoughts on this, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way.  I guess we probably shouldn't compare the movies, but it is hard not to sometimes.  I'm still glad we've got another Star Wars film on the way, but almost equally I'm said that the LOTR trilogy is over.  But, I guess we're lucky to have lived in the time to catch both classics....Star Wars and Lord of the Rings .

[Angry Ewok]

I will say this about the gay thing : it didn't cross my mind until they were stranded on the rock together... I haven't read the books so I didn't know what was going to happen, but I didn't expect a kiss or anything.

I think anyone who walks out of ROTK saying 'I wonder if they were gay', must have slept through the rest of the movie. I was too busy thinking about those cool eagle/hawk thingies.

[Nicklab]

I can't believe anyone thought that for a second.  A lot of Tolkien's perspective on "The War Of The Ring" came from his experiences in the first World War.  Frodo and Sam's relationship is based on that between an English army officer (Frodo) and his Sergeant or aide (Sam).  Both are usually from different social classes, as are Sam and Frodo.  However, their collective experience has drawn them together due to the horrifying circumstances.  That brings about a type of closeness that can't be explained to most people.  The only way I think you can even begin to understand that kind of close relationship without living it is to watch something like the HBO miniseries "Band Of Brothers".  Or, just read Henry the 5th's speech in Shakespeare's work on the eve of the English battle with the French at Agincourt on St. Crispin's day.

[Darby]

Tolkien (nor Jackson) never intended a gay subtext to Frodo and Sam's relationship but clearly some people are finding it.  This isn't exclusive to LOTR, and I think it's a case of what you bring to it.  I personally don't see it (more concerned with Eowyn).

[Ben]

If the only criticism the tards can find is 'Frodo and Sam were gay' then I'd say they're reaching for criticism. Besides, they're probably little 15 year old jerkwads who spend too much time on the internet anyway. But that's just me.

[Morgbug]

alternate occurrence - FOTR

Content warning in place for you and your younguns.  Enjoy.