2004/2005 NHL Offseason

[Holographic Elvis]

http://www.detnews.com/2004/wings/0409/30/d04-286431.htm

[Morgbug]

I agree with most of what Lindsay says.  The only problem being this isn't the NBA/NFL/MLB.  There just aren't the revenues to support a league paying that kind of money.  The NHL doesn't get the merchandising dollars, the TV contracts and subsequently the advertising revenue that goes with that. 

Salaries need to come back into line and the owners are too stupid to do it on their own.  They need the cap moreso than the players.  Unfortunately for the players, the cap will affect them.  But realistically, with a choice of being on the farm or making 1.3 million per for chasing a frozen turd on the ice, what are they bitching about? 

[Holographic Elvis]

I agree with most of what Lindsay says.  The only problem being this isn't the NBA/NFL/MLB.  There just aren't the revenues to support a league paying that kind of money.  The NHL doesn't get the merchandising dollars, the TV contracts and subsequently the advertising revenue that goes with that. 

Salaries need to come back into line and the owners are too stupid to do it on their own.  They need the cap moreso than the players.  Unfortunately for the players, the cap will affect them.  But realistically, with a choice of being on the farm or making 1.3 million per for chasing a frozen turd on the ice, what are they bitching about? 

There's no question the NHL is not at the level financially as the other 3 major sports leagues.  It's an amazing game, but unfortunately, it's not TV friendly.  The deal that the league struck w/ NBC is a joke and doesn't help anyone.  There's no money in it for the league and that only hurts matters. 

As for salaries, the owners dug their own hole and now they are betting on Bettman bailing them out.  Bettman has run this league into the ground by over expanding and making other bad decisions such as rule changes that only hampered scoring and catered to trapping defenses.  The players won't go for a cap because that honestly won't make teams more competitive.  All it does is guarantee owners make money on their teams.  Players are still going to sign where they want to sign.  If the NHL truly wants to improve it's state of affairs, it needs to remove Bettman, dissolve some franchises and change the rules to promote scoring.  Could you imagine the NHL w/ only 20 teams?  The talent on the clubs would be insane and if you change the rules to open up scoring, you instantly gain fans.  No one wants to see soccer on ice. 

[Morgbug]

OK now.  What 20 teams and in what 20 cities?

[Jeff]

OK now.  What 20 teams and in what 20 cities?

Here's what I'd do. 

Four 5 Team Divisions - bring back the Old School Names!

Prince of Wales Conference

Adams (Northeast) Division:
Buffalo
Boston
Montreal
Ottawa - (relaces the Whale)
NY Islanders - (replaces Le Nordique)

Patrick (Atlantic) Division:
Pittsburgh
NY Rangers
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Washington

Campbell Conference

Norris (Midwestern) Division:
Toronto
Chicago
St. Louis
Minnesota
Detroit

Smythe (Pacific) Division:
Vancouver
Los Angeles
Colorado - (sorry bug, no return for Winnipeg )
Edmonton
Calgary


These Areas would be out of luck as their teams would be dissolved...
Atlanta
Carolina
Florida
Tampa Bay
Dallas
San Jose
Nashville
Anaheim
Columbus
Phoenix

Ditch the trap, shrink goalie pads (width, not thickness), and open up the ice.

Not to brag, but it would totally fix the NHL. 

Just my $0.02,
Jeff

[Scott]

Detroit
Chicago
Pittsburgh
Boston
New York
Colorado
Minnesota
Buffalo
New Jersey
Philadelphia
Saint Louis
Eh...Dallas
Eh...LA

Montreal
Toronto
Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Ottawa
Winnipeg

And I could see Buffalo or Winnipeg (sorry Bug) not having a team and putting one more team in the South (Tampa or Nashville or Atlanta)

[Morgbug]

WEll, I appreciate the sentiments, but it's going to depend on what the priority in the league is.  If it's $$$, then Winnipeg is out.  But Tampa/Nashville/Atlanta?  Where's that hurling icon I requested. 

I don't think Washington deserves a team.  I can't state what the support has been for the team in the past, but it's never impressed me as a hockey place. 

Ottawa sucks.  Realistically they draw more fans from Toronto than they do from their own area.  And those are people that can't get tickets to the Leafs.  Don't get me wrong, but with all the frickin' money in Ottawa, they should draw better.  The team should have folded and be gone, but bastard Bettman didn't want it to happen.  That is all said noting I cheer for the Senators. 

Edmonton and Calgary are not a whole lot different from us.  A bit more history, largely thanks to Gretzky, but they are now fringe teams, barely hanging on.  Going back to my earliest comment about what the direction is, then they stay or go depending on the answer. 

I do not believe Los Angeles should retain a team (sorry Matt).  But that place is *******, purely *******, empty 90% of the time.  Is the only reason to keep a team around deep pockets?  If so, I'm not so interested in a league any more.  Yeah, yeah, long history, Marcel Dionne, Gretzky played there, blah, blah, blah. 

I think Dallas retains its team.  Texas has tons of hockey going on, strange as it sounds, but if the stat is correct, Texas has more professional hockey teams (at varying levels) than Canada.  They also seem to support the team, my primary criteria for a place having a team.  **** LA and put us back in the Smythe. 

I do like the return of the original divisions.

[Scott]

LA was a toss up, I think the market size and money in the area means they'd keep a team.  Didn't know that about Ottawa...they could go...Quebec instead?

I don't think Washington needs a team either.  As was shown in recent playoff runs, the team wins, the fans come...no hockey though, would anyone really care?

[Holographic Elvis]

Personally, I don't think you can fold any of the Canadian teams.  Do that, and it just hurts the tradition even more. 

I whole heartedly agree that we need to go back to the old conference and division names.  I'm tired of the generic names. 

Teams I would fold for certain would be:

Buffalo
Carolina
Florida
Pittsburgh
Washington
Phoenix
Columbus
Atlanta
Nashville

One more team would have to go as well, but not sure who as I said previously I don't think we should fold any of the Canadian franchises.

Rule changes MUST happen and they must be made to promote scoring and open up the game. 

The hardest part of folding teams is the fact the NHLPA may never go for it because think how many jobs would be lost.

[jjks]

I'm going against the grain of all you "purists" and maintain that Nashville deserves a franchise, and definitely has the potential fan base here to support it. Completely removing all Southern teams is not the answer to fixing the league, and if any of them deserve a shot I think it's the Preds.

I think this year's playoff push was exactly what the casual fans here needed to get exited about hockey again, and anyone here that was at any of the playoff games (or got a phone call from yours truly when your Wings got smacked here and the place was too loud to hear anything but screaming) recognized that with the right team on the ice the city stands 100% behind them.

Tennessee loves sports teams, Titans sell out entire seasons in mere minutes, the Vols cram 100,000 plus in every week, even our minor league baseball team (for the Pirates at the time no less), put up good numbers.

That said, this strike is the worst possible thing that could happen to a city that was on the verge of bringing in the crowds. I don't know what's going to happen now here, if the strike goes on as long as I think it will, I don't know how much energy will carry over from last season. And that's a shame for any hockey fan...

[Jesse James]

I live in Pittsburgh, I support the Pens, they still are drawing crowds even with the (arguably) worst team in the NHL last year, and the city's a big hockey town and has been since the team's inception.  Folding us isn't going to do anything but weaken an already crappy conference.

Financial woes for our team were business decisions gone sour, not a poor performance by the fans, so declaring a fold here isn't based on anything "current".  Lemieux just needs a new stadium and the Pens will be back...  Given that we just passed the gambling bill to help get a new arena, hopefully, things will turn around.  There's little talk of the team collapsing here at this point.

As for the other teams, I disagree with Buffalo as well, only because I think Buffalo's a good hockey town...  A good market, just again poor management (currently as well as in the past).  Phoenix is tough to say... 

Washington I agree with.  They usually have more Pens fans than Caps fans when we have games.  That's a telling sign that the sport's not viable there...  Columbus I also agree with.  It's not a team that had a strong showing last year as I recall, and I can't see it increasing.

Carolina had solid sales last year I thought...  I could be wrong.  They always seemed to have big crowds to me.

Florida should have one team, not two, I agree.

I saw so little of Atlanta and Nashville last year to even know what was up that I'd hate to judge, but those are pretty foreign lands for hockey.  Atlanta's had solid minor league performances though over the years, so....

To me you fold who doesn't help the game at all.  Folding a ton of U.S. teams at the cost of Canadian teams that are equally (or worse off) financially inept isn't the answer.  It's not good business...  Tradition or not.

I'm as old-school as the next hockey fan today, and I hate seeing Canadian teams fold, but they're not carrying the NHL to warrant the closure of TONS of U.S. markets in their favor.  It's not the CHL, it's the NHL.

Pittsburgh's been a huge advocate for NEW major rule changes and BIG enforcement of them...  So I agree with tweaking things for a more wide-open game.  Lemieux's always pushed for that, from the height of his playing on into his ownership years.

I think the rules changes and enforcement are the #1 problem of the NHL, and the next is salary...  Salary Cap's the greatest thing that happened to the NFL.  It'd be the greatest thing to happen to the NHL, even if it is pointless to argue about that...  It's still the biggest "issue" the NHL faces as a whole.

[Morgbug]

I'm as old-school as the next hockey fan today, and I hate seeing Canadian teams fold, but they're not carrying the NHL to warrant the closure of TONS of U.S. markets in their favor.  It's not the CHL, it's the NHL.

All due respect, you're not as old school then.  Bluntly put, our dollar sucks, even now it's only closing in on $0.80 US.  Winnipeg religiously put 13,000 fans in an arena that while charming in it's own right, is a huge pile of crap.  Beyond the 9000 lower bowl seats, you had people paying good money for seats no one else in the league would sit in. 

I contrast that with regular season attendance (it's easy to get worked up for playoffs) at any of Nashville, Los Angeles, Carolina, Atlanta or any other southern team.  Don't feed me crap about getting behind the team come playoff time, that's a no brainer.  Sure, I'll allow for teams like Nashville to develop some interest, I just don't really expect it to happen in a regular season.  Winnipeg supported a team with 10,000+ fans at every game when they won only 8 games all year and set the record for ineptitude going 33 games without a win.  Any US city going to do that?  Sure, Pittsburgh, Detroit, New York, etc.  Not some new market where there is minimal fan interest in a winning regular season. 

It's not the CHL, it's the NHL

Let me rephrase that:  it's the NHL, not the NFL.  Go where you have a dependable fan base, not just where some jackass, no brain owner needs a tax write off.   

Riddle me this Jesse: how pissed off would you and the fans of Pittsburgh be if the Pens left?  Imagine that and know how I feel.  Pittsburgh is a good hockey town that supports their team, has done so for a long time and understands hockey, even has fans that play it.  Winnipeg is a big hockey town, has a huge fan base relatively speaking and we all play or have played the game at some point in our life, regardless of gender. 

Winnipeg couldn't find a decent local owner, much as your comments state it had nothing to do with support for the team from the city.  Bettman desperately wanted a team in Phoenix and wanted out of Winnipeg.  That's business, not poor fan performance.  And nobody better go and pull up some bull**** attendance stats.  I don't give a flying **** about how many tickets were given away to fans that didn't show up, that's not a body in the seat, that's padding your numbers, something the NHL does on the whole.  I watch hockey on TV and get very angry watching games in the regular season broadcast from the southern US.  People aren't there, they don't give a ****, not in the regular season.  LA is abominable.  Carolina is an embarassment, watch a game and look into the stands.  How can they have decent numbers when half the seats are empty?

If it's just a business and there's no passion for the game, the US is welcome to it.  The league will fold eventually then and maybe we can have hockey where people give a crap about it instead of where it makes good business sense. 

Pissed off?  Yeah.  Bitter?  ******* right.  Sour grapes?  Did you understand the pun?   I thought not.

[Scott]

Psst...none of the scenarios will work until there is a salary cap and revenue sharing.  Why Professional Sports teams/leagues don't copy the NFL is beyond unfathomable to me...seriously.  Its the stupidest thing in the world that the teams all share in the success of each other on an equal playing field with equal salaries etc

Every NFL teams makes millions of dollars a year.  Because the weak sisters are taken care of by the big boys and there is a chance every damn year for your team to go all the way

NBA is the next best, the have a luxury tax for owners that forces them to pay penalties for going over the cap to sign superstars...if Hockey wants another model, combine the two.  Have revenue sharing and a luxury tax instead of a cap...it will keep salaries down but also improve competitive balance and bring a little parity to the league

Parity is the whole key...teams and cities need to know they have a chance to win every year

[Morgbug]

Yes, absolutely Scott.  The cap is beneficial to the overall health of the league.  Pardon my rant above, but I have no understanding of why the Minnesota's and Pittsburgh's of the world are more deserving than Winnipeg is.  Aside from deeper pockets that is.  I'd suggest that we at the very least at least as much fan support and probably a better understanding of the game as a community than most US teams, excepting the original six and those communities that experience winter sufficiently. 

Look, Pittsburgh got it's team in 1967, Minnesota in 1967 as well.  So you're looking at nearly 40 years of history.  Winnipeg and the WHA started in 1972.  I doubt any of you are old enough to remember, but look up some of the history.  It was hardly a bush league.  Much of the talent was top notch and could compete with the NHL.  Bobby Hull was "stolen" from the Chicago Blackhawks and became the first million dollar player.  Where?  Winnipeg.  Winnipeg won the Avco cup several times during the league's short history (72-79) and had one of the most amazing teams with Anders Hedberg, Ulf Nillson, Bobby Hull and many more.  When the WHA and the NHL joined, the NHL did it's best to rape the WHA teams of their talent.  Winnipeg went from being Avco cup champion to near if not at the bottom of the NHL. 

During both the WHA and NHL years, Winnipeg fans supported the team well, with average crowds that would exceed most of the current attendance that southern US NHL teams experience.  The fan support was there. 

During the 1970's as well, the US and Canadian dollar fluctuated relative to each other.  At times the US dollar was above the Canadian dollar but at times the Canadian dollar was worth more than the US dollar.  That helped tremendously.  For most of my adult life the dollar has been worth less than $0.80 US.  On the bright side, from less than two years ago it has climbed nearly $0.20 in value, so lets hope Bush gets re-elected and the trend continues, hmm?  During the 1980's to present, the dollar has been low.  Without revenue sharing, it is difficult for Canadian teams to compete.  They are at an automatic disadvantage as their revenue is in Canadian dollars while they are paying players in US dollars, the worst exchange rate was two years ago when CAD - $0.61 USD.  40% disadvantage. 

Now, no one is suggesting closing a ton of markets to bring NHL back to Canada.  We lost two teams.  Only two.  I can see US teams sucking in revenue and attendance all in markets where kids DO NOT grow up playing hockey and fans are casual.  Why is it ok for NHL ----> AHL?

As a parting comment (for now) I always enjoy the comments regarding scoring.  It seems to impact the crowds in the US, but not in Canada.  I wonder why that is?  Not to say that a more wide open game as Jesse suggest is not desirable, clearly it is and everyone would benefit.  But gosh, ratings remain good in Canada.  But hey, we don't need teams up here, it's a business after all, not a charity event. 

Scott's right, the league and its players are idiots.  Greed baby, greed.  Think Brett Hull.

[Jesse James]

I'm not arguing your points Morgbug, as I agree...  I don't like seeing Canuck teams falter, but the figures are against them.

My point is within Scott's entire point...  The real problem's profit sharing and a cap...  Copying the NFL to a tee so the NHL can prosper and competition is spread...  And then to Holographic Elvis's point about restructuring the rules and enforcing them as well, so the game itself is more to the fast-paced hockey that draws ALL fans in.

My post was in regards mostly only to Holographic Elvis's idea to close a ton of teams down.  You don't close off teams that are solid performers for the NHL and that will thrive in a competitive and economically friendly league.  My hometown being one of them... 

I think the expansion's out of control...  Not that I think Phoenix is doing that poorly as an expansion team but I don't agree with them taking a team from Canada for it.  Some of those teams I think are a bit much though, but not all of them.  Columbus and Florida (one of the FL teams) namely.

I think there's room for all these teams, but it's the league that's screwed up, not the small market teams which Pittsburgh turned into...  We weren't that way a little over 10 years ago though.  We were the dominant team in the league by far and away...  And fans still are supporting the Pens vehemently (though the arena thing's leaving a sour taste because we've got 2 stadiums we're paying on, and one's for a losing team that gives nothing back to the city *cough*pirates*cough*).

My post wasn't a shot at Canada, but rather a point that you don't close teams in the U.S. that have been here for ages, have a solid hockey foundation, have shown good performance, and have the ability to grow and expand, in favor of Canadian teams...  It's the same problem you've got in Winipeg, but in reverse...  I don't agree with closing shop and moving a team North or South of the border if they have a viable market, and Winipeg and Pitt both have that...

Columbus, Carolina, Florida, Nashville, Atlanta...  I dunno.  Atlanta's minorleage team always did well, but on those others I'm not so sure.  I mean, Columbus isn't even really a "major" city in Ohio beyond being its capital.  That's like saying Harrisburg's a major city in PA...  It's just not the truth.  It's our capital but Philly and Pittsburgh are considered the 2 "big names" here.  I'm perplexed on the Columbus decision.

Washington was the ONLY older US team on HE's list I agreed with, and that's because they are just not behind that team and never have been.  The caps would have dominant teams in the playoffs back when the Pens were winning cups, and you'd still see MORE fans from out of town than Caps Fans...  You don't see that in Philly, Buffalo, or NY though, and I'd say each isn't but a hop, skip, & jump from Pittsburgh as well...  No offense to any Caps fans here though, I just am speaking for what I've seen over all the years of playing them.

Anyway, I'm not in disagreement iwth your points MOrgbug, but I do disagree with catering to Canada at the cost of established U.S. teams just as the Canucks feel the same but in reverse order.

I say lock the NHL (teamwise) at what it is, sort out a salary cap and profit sharing, and revise the rules in grand fashion...  Then you'll see a game ready for expansion on both sides of the border.