Why do so many hate the Expanded Universe?

[Dimetrodon]

i always recall the symbol as being a Bantha Skull, although not completey correct looking.. heh
but are u trying to say that jaster and buddies are the only ones entitled to the symbol in any way form or shape?

and durge suck, only because he is too invincible,
example
he is stabbed or shot in the back. "HAHA, i have no spinal cord, try again"
stuff like that.

[Jango Fettish]

The "Deaths Head" skull was the equivalent of a battle flag for Jaster Mereel's regiment. So, yeah, they are basically the only ones that can get away with wearing it.

My only guess is that since Jaster Mereel's fleet was the last army standing, Durge is either masking himself as a former warrior or something along the lines of mocking the Mandalorians for fun, to spite them.

Boba wears it in tribute to Papa Fett most likely. I have also drawn the conclusion that the Mandalorian Wheat logo w/ the letter F and the blood drop is in memorium of Fett's parents, who were farmers, slain by a rogue group of Mandalorians. Althought said group was never given a designation, it was more than likely the "Death Watch".

Jango Fett's Expanded Universe story has been tons of fun to get into, and is definately better than most anything I have ever bothered looking into.

[Dimetrodon]

The "Deaths Head" skull was the equivalent of a battle flag for Jaster Mereel's regiment. So, yeah, they are basically the only ones that can get away with wearing it.

My only guess is that since Jaster Mereel's fleet was the last army standing, Durge is either masking himself as a former warrior or something along the lines of mocking the Mandalorians for fun, to spite them.

Boba wears it in tribute to Papa Fett most likely. I have also drawn the conclusion that the Mandalorian Wheat logo w/ the letter F and the blood drop is in memorium of Fett's parents, who were farmers, slain by a rogue group of Mandalorians. Althought said group was never given a designation, it was more than likely the "Death Watch".

Jango Fett's Expanded Universe story has been tons of fun to get into, and is definately better than most anything I have ever bothered looking into.

thats some deep stuff. hehe

but we gotta realize something like the wheet stalk was around before jango or anything existed. its really all speculation.
as for durge....
who cares.
its liek asking why OOM-9 has a yellow head and spot, and not a colored body like a security or pilot droid....
who cares.

[SPIDERLEGS]

I'm sort of halfway in and out on EU. Some of the EU releases were great. I liked SOTE. I thought the Outrider was a cool ship (wish I would have picked one up). Xizor was OK, I guess. It was interesting seeing a legitimate rival to Vader for the Emperor's favor.  I liked the Luke disquise and Chewie as Snoova. Why didn't they make a Guri figure? she was cool.

Heir to the Empire was decent. Thrawn is a great character and one of my favorite Imperial figures. Of course Mara Jade is awesome ( I had to buy two of them so I could make Guri from SOTE).

Dark Empire I was sort of out on. I liked the Devastators, but I got sick of the Emperor always coming back as a clone, though the clone Emperor is a cool figure. I didn't really care for the art in Dark Empire, either.

I loved The Clone Wars. Though the releases for the cartoon are more statue than figure. They don't do much, so they're kind of disappointing. I bought them all anyway, but...

I have always been into the STAR WARS comics going all the way back to issue #7 of the Marvel Comics line when Han Solo and Chewbacca bail on the rebellion to go pay Jabba back and wind up in a band of mercenaries to save a village from swoop bandits. Anyone else remember this story line? One of Han's buddies was a big green rabbit named Jaxx. It was a direct ripoff of some old western where the two outlaws go around hiring mercenaries to protect a town from bandits.

I tried to get into the SITH and Tales of the Jedi series, but I admit, STAR WARS is character driven for me, so I don't necessarily want to see some random character I've never encountered as a main character unless they develop the character fully. I'm sure they did develop characters, but I wasn't in to that ancient version of STAR WARS. Maybe I'll give it another shot sometime. I never like it when they bring in another random Hutt into the EU comics, I'm over the Hutts. I don't like for new stories to rehash too much from the old ones.I hate it when characters die and oops, wait, they're back.

I would like for someone to do an EU series that is a bit more adult oriented. I don't mean nudity or gratuitous violence, but more sophisticated themes, less cornball one-liners, despicable villains and obviously flawed heroes. Maybe delving intomore complicated plots without so much convenient resolution. I don't know. Maybe like STAR WARS if done by Ridley Scott or the Wachowski brothers. I didn't like the Matrix that much as far as the whole Neo/messiah storyline went, but I loved the look and the background. I would love it if there were a STAR WARS equivalent to the Animatrix.

[Lestat]

Ok a few things:
- Luke marrying Mara- This is not a relationship that happened as soon as she was introduced, they new each other for years before there was even a spark of interest.  The fact that people think Luke wouldn't marry a former darkside user or that it's "out of character" doesn't make sense. Based on luke's journey from ANH to ROTJ it is intrinsic to his character that he believe that people can change no matter how "evil". If not for this belief then Vader would never have been redeemed and the whole purpose of the "Canon" (the tale of Vader's rise, fall , and redemption) wouldn't make any sense. Further, Mara was manipulated by the emperor. She had very limited darkside powers so that Palpatine could influence her. Obviously she wasn't completely under his control but it's not like Luke married a Dark lord of the sith. Yes, Mara was an assasin for the Empire but calling her a mass murderer on par with Vader is completely unfair and inaccurate. And my last point about Luke and Mara is that Luke isn't whipped, he's just married

The thing that absolutely KILLS me about EU haters is that they will dog out really great characters like Quinlan Vos, Mara Jade, and Kyle Katarn but will bend over backward for dumb sh** like Icecream maker guy.

[Jesse James]

I'm not sure I follow you on the issue of Katarn and the others in your last part there Lestat.

The ICMG doesn't have much background that I'm aware of...  He didn't even have a name till recently, so without much history to him, him appearing elsewhere, etc., I don't think that they've bent over backwards to include him or elaborate on him.  Give him a name and some "existance" though I see...  Even mminiscule EU though can suck I've learned.  A character with a simple brief bio can be really dumb and interwoven to the main characters no matter how obscure and irrelevant the character is.  That's a huge gripe of mine.

Scott mentioned on the last page how there'll be the 'Taun Taun Horn" bar too for some place's name...  That's a good example of BAD EU'ing I think.  Hoth is supposed to not even really be a known place afterall.  Stupid...

But anyway not to get sidetracked, I don't necessarilly look at the marriage of Luke/Mara poorly...  I don't feel that those characters have been exploited though really (Jade, Katarn, etc.) that you listed.  If anything, Katarn's part in EU's mostly ceneterd around his game exploits...  He only had 3 books, none were considered great or even long stories, and they too had some focus around his game exploits...  Beyond that it's mostly been Katarn in NJO which I don't think was a very big role.  I'm disappointed if anything with the fact no GOOD EU story outside his games really has been focused on Katarn.  There's a ton of pre-Jedi Knight Katarn to be told, I'd love to get into that and write it myself for LFL.   

[Lestat]

I didn't mean bent over backward in the sense of making up a back story for him, it was more me just taking what was an admittedly cheap shot at the whole fan's choice disscussion/argument that's been going on. And I agree that the whole "Taun Taun" bar is an example of bad EU but it's consistent with Obi- wan making comments like being sent on a "wild Bantha chase" in ROTS. I agree that the concept of the "taun taun bar" or Obi wan using a term from a planet we've only known him to have gone to once is lame but it certainly isn't exclusive to the EU.

I agree that alot of the really good EU characters have not been used to their fullest potential. Your example with Katarn and also I think that Mara Jade's character hasn't been very well developed. I don't know if I missed it, but I don't think that there has been a book that actually goes into her and Luke getting together. It felt like they were friends and then all of a sudden they were married.

All in all I feel that there is bad EU and bad Canon (I hate sand it gets every where...but not like you...Ew.) But to act like it all sucks just because some of it does just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Obviously because there are so many different artists involved with the EU , no one project is going to appeal to everyone (I find Zahn's stuff pretty boring <even though I really like Mara Jade and Thrawn as characters> but most people love him). But, in a way, that's kind of the cool thing about it because when you find a book that appeals to your particular perspective it's a really fun read.

[MetalJedi]

Wow Im surprised someone brought my thread back from the dead.   

[Darth Slothus]

This is a really good thread Rob! everybody is making nice friendly arguments/viewpoints with (no doubt) good humor.
My favorites were Rob's line about What did everyone just pack it up and go home- Or Jesse's LIL' joke about The Thrawn/Dark empires .

Me personally? Don't really know enough to make a valid register on here. What I do know is that Quinlan Voss is now my 2nd most favorite SW character of all time behind Vader. I can only say that I've been really entertained by the Dark Horse clone wars photonovels and other comics like
Republic and Obsession. I really like the comics OK, I think they're cool-So maybe I'm a real comic geek but Oh well..can't please everyone. As for Books I'm really weak here....I read Labrynth of Evil in  2 days and really liked Grievous' background storyline in there..but have never really read ANY of the POST OT books to know anything about the Vong, thrawn, clone emperor, ect..

I guess what I'm saying here is that I really am an EU fan but I don't have a lot of info(experienced info) to back that. I think EU is nice because SW is an all the time/ on going thing in my mind and who says(sorry George) we can't have an expanding/developing imagination with the SW story? 

[Nathan]

And, by the way, are any of you aware of the fact that Splinter of the Mind's Eye was written without the permission of George Lucas and Lucasfilm LTD., and the author got sued? And that GL REFUSES to read the EU, nor accept them as canon?

I know I shouldn't really waste time replying to a three-year-old post by someone who never returned afterward, but I had to set this straight. I've been around a while, and I've NEVER heard that about SOTME.

In fact, the rumor I heard was that it was conceived as a potential sequel to ANH. The Star Wars Wiki says, "According to an interview with Alan Dean Foster in Empire, the book was written to be filmed as a low budget sequel if Star Wars was not a huge success. That's why it takes place almost entirely on a fog shrouded planet. Additionally, Harrison Ford was not signed for the sequel as of the writing of the book, which is why Han Solo does not appear in it." Now, I can't confirm that as 100% true either, but it does fit better with other things I've heard over time.

P.S.: the part about Lucas never, ever having anything to do with the EU is bogus too, and can be disproved from examples I won't waste time with here. Understandably, he doesn't recognize them on the same level as his own vision, but he seems to regard them as a sort of parallel universe that can coexist with the films.

[Jesse James]

Yeah Lucas isn't terrible about EU...  For instance the Boba Fett issue is classic as to exemplifying Lucas's stance on things.

Lucas approved the comics, which brought back Fett explicitly to capitalize on an over-hyped Star Wars background character with no real solid story...  Lucas set some "rules" for Fett's character for whoever wrote about him, but he didn't really say anything beyond the few guidelines...  Otherwise it was a thing where they could just have at it and put together a story people would enjoy and buy (that last bit being the key).

Lucas himself has gone on record saying Fett's dead to him...  In his "Star Wars World", Fett goes in the Sarlacc and starts a long painful death and that's that.  No glorious Sarlac vomiting and Fett resurrection.

Now, of course EU fans and Fett fans (most of them anyway) don't agree with that...  Even though Lucas himself says it's "how it is" to him, and he is the creator, but that doesn't seem to matter...

That's the fun about any form of outside analysis of art, be it literary or film or whatever...  When I had my Tolkien Studies course, one of the key concepts my prof wanted the class to keep in mind was that art is interpreted differently by everyone...  That includes Lucas's FILMS even...  The established "canon" as it were doesn't necessarilly mean you can't view it differently from different people.  The films have different points of view you can develope from watching them...  EU's kind of the same.  I think Canon is just a GOOD guideline for base arguments/discussions...  Like it sets some "facts" for lack of a better term since you're tyring to have solid discussion on a fictional universe...

The EU then is more loose and open to interpretation which makes its conversations sometimes more interesting, while the films are a little more "solid" and "factual" if you will...  It's good then because like if someone wants to argue the size of a ship or some such, you can say "no, the film clearly shows it is such and such feet long", and it's tough to debate because "the films are canon" and that's that.  Other elements of the films are really easily interpreted differently or viewed with different glasses by different people...  Like Luke's growth through the trilogy, or whatnot...

The discussion of the somewhat open-ended EU material though is great to me because there's more personal creative freedom one can use when looking at it.  Everything from EU art of a character varies from image to image, and the writing varies greatly too...  It's much more condusive to the imaginations of the readers/viewers interpeting it and discussing it as opposed to the films which are more solid and not all elements are easily interpreted in different ways.

[Nathan]

Lucas himself has gone on record saying Fett's dead to him...  In his "Star Wars World", Fett goes in the Sarlacc and starts a long painful death and that's that.  No glorious Sarlac vomiting and Fett resurrection.

But then again, I've also read a rumor that he toyed with the idea of adding Fett climbing out of the Sarlacc into either the 97 SE or the 04 DVD (I forget which).

Of course, BOTH might have been true at the time he said them--he seems to change his official stances about such things on an almost weekly basis.

The discussion of the somewhat open-ended EU material though is great to me because there's more personal creative freedom one can use when looking at it.  Everything from EU art of a character varies from image to image, and the writing varies greatly too...  It's much more condusive to the imaginations of the readers/viewers interpeting it and discussing it as opposed to the films which are more solid and not all elements are easily interpreted in different ways.

Good point.

[dafoo]

Wow Jesse James your posts are so close to how I feel about EU.  I'm not sure what to add to it. heh

I've always loved how they make the effort to make the whole EU one story, of one history.  But like Darkhorse has infinities (what ifs), I wish they'd do the same with some of the earlier EU.  It doesn't all have to fit together; and I'm one that loves order!  The Prophets of the Dark side, couldn't we have just left that out?

That said, I still want to get an official timeline list of all things Star Wars.  Comics and books and video games and the RPG stuff all meshed into one history. It is like I love the continuity and hate it at the same time.

I think the Vong series hurt EU.  It was borglike, and it dismantled what Jedi were.  Made them too simple to kill.  The whole idea of "if I can't feel you in the force, I can't fight you."

EU also relies too heavily on the movies characters.  I loved X-Wing for the move away from "beat up Luke" book of the month.  I don't mind NOT seeing jedi in a story.

[Oboewan]

Wow Jesse James your posts are so close to how I feel about EU.  I'm not sure what to add to it. heh

I've always loved how they make the effort to make the whole EU one story, of one history.  But like Darkhorse has infinities (what ifs), I wish they'd do the same with some of the earlier EU.  It doesn't all have to fit together; and I'm one that loves order!  The Prophets of the Dark side, couldn't we have just left that out?

That said, I still want to get an official timeline list of all things Star Wars.  Comics and books and video games and the RPG stuff all meshed into one history. It is like I love the continuity and hate it at the same time.

I think the Vong series hurt EU.  It was borglike, and it dismantled what Jedi were.  Made them too simple to kill.  The whole idea of "if I can't feel you in the force, I can't fight you."

EU also relies too heavily on the movies characters.  I loved X-Wing for the move away from "beat up Luke" book of the month.  I don't mind NOT seeing jedi in a story.

I totally loved Jesse's post too- the EU and the whole Star Wars Galaxy is open to individual interpretation... everyone see's it from their own "point of view" as Obi-Wan so eloquently put it.

The Vong series was not my favorite-- read it I did, love it I did not.   I'm currently re-reading the post OT novels and just started Planet of Twilight and just realized something that really bothers me about Callista- when she "comes back" and has no connection to the force, Luke can't even see her at all....  and that sorta got me thinking about how the Jedi can't sense the Vong in force either... but Callista isn't Vong.. so shouldn't there be at least SOMETHING Luke can sense in her?

Just speculating....

Oboewan

[GrandMoffNick]

Couldn't disagree with you guys any more. I love having one timeline. It of course doesn't always work out but I love it. I also loved the Vong!!!!