Drop in Collector Interest?

[Brian]

This is a topic we've been discussing in the Q and A thread since the last round, where Hasbro (through several sites) indicated how - while Star Wars is selling better than ever, it is mostly due to Clone Wars, and the "Legacy" type figures were dropping in sales.  As is often the case with some of Hasbro's answers that they send to a number of sites, it makes me think they are subtly telling us "get ready for less collector figures, and more animated stuff".

A few questions regarding this...first, do you believe them?  Do you think that there really is a drop in overall collectors and/or "collector" sales?  Second, what do you think is the reason for it?  Is it one of the following:

-So Many Years Collecting for Some Leading to Burn Out (Since '95, or longer with Vintage)
-Clone Wars Animated (Although it seems to be selling well, it was quite polarizing among collectors at first)
-Price Increases/Down Economy (I'm sure this plays at least a part for many)
-Lack of Interest/Most Figures Done (Always more to be made, but getting more obscure all the time)

Also, if this is the case, what do you think can be done to fix it?  Other than the obvious choice of lower prices, what do you think would keep collectors in the fold?  I'm someone who has bought both the animated CW stuff and the Legacy line, but if I had to choose one I wouldn't think twice about keeping with the "realistic" style stuff.  I may be heading more and more that way anyways.  I don't mind, and can understand, why the animated stuff is there for kids (and collectors), and it is obviously doing well for Hasbro.  Do you think we are seeing the start of a dwindling space for "movie" figures at retail?

Aside from prices, I could see "burn out" having something to do with it.  Not only have we had nearly 15 years of modern collecting, there also seems to be "more stuff" out there than ever.  That might be changing as some lines (Unleashed, Titanium, etc.) seem to be getting the axe, but it does seem more difficult to keep up with things these days.  There also seems to be more and more focus upon prequel/CW/EU era toys - which, again, is understandable - and I think that a lot of the older collectors maybe have a little more of a leaning towards OT.  Not to say that many, if not most, of us collect the entire Saga - but I know that I personally usually get more jazzed about a new OT wave, especially with them being more infrequent the last few years.  That might contribute to a lower interest level.  Anyways, I'm rambling now, but I was just wondering what some of your opinions were on the whole "collector interest fading" comment we've gotten from Hasbro.  Do you feel the same way, and if so - as a collector - what would keep your interest better?  My gut reaction is to say "more Original Trilogy" - but the OT collectors might be the minority at this point, and it may just be my preference .

[jedi_master_sal]

Brian, it's a combination of all of those things and one other thing you didn't say. There is no live action event to help support the realistic style. While we have the movies, even the newest one is 4 years old now. The animated line is benefitting greatly from a weekly show.

I would almost best my left nut that if there was a live action show, realistic figures would see a boom in sales.

Price is a huge factor. Room to house all of our collectibles is another. The economy is a big minus right now.

The perceived lack of interest from Hasbro is of their own doing. Simply they just aren't making too many figures we are excited about. Couple that with all the reasons above and appears there is less of an interest in realistic figures.

Fact is there are still many figures we'd like to see made. New movie figures are indeed being depleted rapidly. However, we still have other character resources available. Games, novels, and comic books have all yielded some great characters. The comic packs seem to be doing pretty well. Perhaps Hasbro should think about this type of thing for Game and Novel figures as well. I'd love to see a 2 or 3 pack of KOTOR figures for instance.

The $8 pricepoint for figures is a hard pill to swallow. I'll speak from my own collecting experience to say that I see that as one of the biggest factors. As an extreme army builder, it used to be nothing for me to grab 20-40 of a given army building figure. In some case 80 of a figure and in one case over 120 (Utapau trooper). At the $5-6 per figure, that was much easier for me to do. The additional $2-3 per figure is one main reason why I don't collect like that anymore. Instead, I'll bide my time and look for deals on eBay. True, Hasbro got their money at some point. However chances were much greater I'd by from a retailer in greater numbers when the prices were much more reasonable. So now I buy no more than 5-6 of a figure that I would have got 20 at least.

With regards to army builders as well, I think Hasbro has done a disservice to us. I'd love to see an "Armies of the Star Wars galaxy" type line. In this line you don't buy individual figures, rather squads of figures. Boxed sets of 5 or 10. NO HEROES, no main characters. At the most maybe a clone officer and just ONE of those in a set like these for instance.  Those sets would retail for $25 for the 5-pack, and $50 for the 10-pack.  These become excellent deals for the collector, even the kid who wants to make armies, and would also be great as party favors.

Another issue that hasn't been touched that Hasbro could do to make this more affordable is packaging. Why on God's earth do we need a big honking window box that's needlessly tall and/or deep and wide for 3-4 figures? The Evolution sets were/ARE pretty good for packaging. Also they take up much less shelf space, which we all know is a premium.

So in my opinion, more battle packs, packaged smaller with troops is one facet they should consider. Battle packs with JUST heros is another so we only need buy the set ONCE. Less plastic would be used in these sets which is better for the environment and the cardboard used is biodegradeable so if trashed won't be as much a harm as all of those bubbles on single carded figures.

Well those are just some thoughts off the top of my head anyway.

[Keonobi]

I don't know if this makes sense, but I could see another factor here, demographics.  The way I see it each line has its own target audience.  Obviously the Clone Wars is aimed at 8-12 year olds, basically the prime age for toys being bought for you.  The Legacy collection still includes those 8-12 year olds, but more generally catches the people who were that age when TPM came out, as well as those that were that age when ANH was released.  If you were 10 in 1978, you are 40 today.  If you were 10 in 1998 you are 20 today.  Now the collector, who has been buying since the vintage line is more or less set in their collecting habits.  But the collector who has been buying since TPM or AOTC is likely to be a lot younger, probably in their 20s and is likely going through a lot of changes in their lives; getting married, having kids, etc.  I think because of the fact that there is no recent major media event to draw a major influx of fans, as Sal mentioned, the existing fans are hanging on, but life happens, and when you have a fixed amount of discretionary income, and then prices rise by 10-20%, you are going to get squeezed.  At least that's been the impact for me.

[jedi_master_sal]

Here's another thing.

Hasbro is hinging on the notion that the kids of today will grow up to be tomorrow's collector. That my friends is extremely faulty of them to think. While there may be a SMALL percentage of them that turn into collectors, most will not.

They don't have the emotional attachment to SW as we late 20s to 40+ year olds do.

Kids have so many other sources of entertainment. Video games being a big one, besides the computer in general.

Yes, Hasbro is enjoying a good slice of the pie now. However, watch what happens over the summer with all of the soon to be blockbuster movies opening. Wolverine, Transformers, etc. While Hasbro holds the licensing for those as well, they WILL see the SW line decrease. Who to blame then? I'm betting collectors will still buy realistic figures during this time. But many kids will turn their attention to other things. Kids for the most part have a much less attention span than adults. Plus, we (I'm talking mid 30s-40+ year olds) grew up on SW. While it's not all we know, it's one thing we know VERY well.

I can make this guarantee with utmost certainty that when the cartoon show is over, so that toy line will die and quickly. However, we steadfast/diehard collectors will still be there (asking for the Tonnika sisters no less).

Hasbro denial that it's price that's driving collectors away and that's it's really the recession is short sighted of them. I said it above...point blank, more $'s per figure means we buy less figures.

Let me again illustrate this going on some of the figures I mentioned above.

Let's say there are 4 army builders I'm interested in.
The old price of $6 is where I still felt somewhat comfortable with buying a lot of them. In this case 20 of each. So that's 80 figures at $6 each for $480 total before tax.

Bumping up the price by 33% to $8 has made me rethink that. Now my practice is buying only 5-6 of each army builder. So let's go with 6 figs. For 4 army builders that's a total of 24 figs at $8 each for a total of $192. That's HALF as much money for Hasbro and just over a third of the amount of figures I would have had at the lesser price. So what happened here? We (Hasbro AND myself) both LOST. Hasbro looses money and I don't really get the amount of figures that I want due to such a high price. Now take this analogy and trim it down some for the non army builders, yet multiply that by the overall number of collectors. What is the result?

Collectors are buying LESS due to price. We're not getting the product that we want or what we believe to be a fair value out of the stuff we buy.

Simply put to Hasbro: We are NOT losing interst in your product. We lose interest in paying more for the same quality stuff we could get for $5-6 just a couple of years ago. We can't fathom how things shifted that much that you felt the need to raise prices that much. And that's across the boards. Let's look at that:

Item                      2005 prices   2009 prices  Net difference
Figs                       $5                 $8               $3 more expensive
Small vehicles        $20              $25-30        $5-10 more expensive AND no pack in figure...
Medium vehicles    $30-40         $50-65        $20-35 more expensive AND no pack in figure...
Comic packs          $10               $13             $3 more expensive
Battle packs          $20               $25-30        $5-10 more expensive AND usually one LESS figure

I could go on, but you get the point. Most items went up in price by 25-33% and some even more. Why? This was WAY to fast of a price hike. We can remember buying SW figs for $3 back in 1977. So it basically took 20 years for them to go up  $2 per figure. Why in just the last 4 years have they gone up $2 yet again? GREED. Please do not give us the bunk about oil. Oil prices at their highest where $147 a barrel and change. They've dipped all the way down to $34 a barrel. THe cost of gas was $4 a gallon many places and now it's back to around $2 per gallon.

Why haven't you kept pace with the market? In my sincerest albeit unscientific observation SW figures should cost no more than $6.50 per figure. This is a modest price increase, but still an increase. However not so much that those of us who buy multiples would have been so far sway like we now have been at the $8 pricepoint.

We WANT figures. We want NEW figures. New meaning never before done, OR the ultimate uber SA end all be all of a character so we never have to feel the need to buy it again.  What's wrong with making certain collector oriented figures exclusives AND yet a shorter run?

Case in point, Yarna. She was in demand before she came along. Make her a limited run as a store exclusive and she would no doubts have sold better. Not more units per say, but the shelves wouldn't have been warming with her.

Same goes for the up coming Willrow Hood fig. It's actually nice to know that we collectors made enough of a stink to get him made, but you Hasbro also need to have enough business sense to know this isn't going to be a mainstream figure. He should have been sold as an exclusive. Instead he's going to stink up a wave in the basic collection and keep us from getting more/newer realistic figures because stores will have a glut of him. Not smart strategy on your part Hasbro. If we are and have been telling you these kinds of things from long before production, swallow your pride and accept that while we'll buy this stuff you must market it properly so as to allow for the rest of the line to flourish. We wanted Yarna, we want Willrow. But we don't need 10 of each. So make them in lesser quantity understanding that. In fact these would have made for a much better battle pack-in figure than single carded.

Anyway, we're still here Hasbro. Please don't ignore us or say we are to blame.

Respectfully,
-Sal

[Brian]

Here's another thing.

Hasbro is hinging on the notion that the kids of today will grow up to be tomorrow's collector. That my friends is extremely faulty of them to think. While there may be a SMALL percentage of them that turn into collectors, most will not.

They don't have the emotional attachment to SW as we late 20s to 40+ year olds do.

Kids have so many other sources of entertainment. Video games being a big one, besides the computer in general.

Yes, Hasbro is enjoying a good slice of the pie now. However, watch what happens over the summer with all of the soon to be blockbuster movies opening. Wolverine, Transformers, etc. While Hasbro holds the licensing for those as well, they WILL see the SW line decrease. Who to blame then? I'm betting collectors will still buy realistic figures during this time. But many kids will turn their attention to other things. Kids for the most part have a much less attention span than adults. Plus, we (I'm talking mid 30s-40+ year olds) grew up on SW. While it's not all we know, it's one thing we know VERY well.

I can make this guarantee with utmost certainty that when the cartoon show is over, so that toy line will die and quickly. However, we steadfast/diehard collectors will still be there (asking for the Tonnika sisters no less).

This is an excellent point Sal.  I've often thought the same thing.  I don't think that kids today have the emotional attachment to certain franchises like Star Wars (same could be said for Transformers, GI Joe and MOTU) that our age group did.  There is such a nostalgic factor to many of those 70s/80s franchises that you just don't see these days.  A lot of it is that there is just so much out there in any given year.  In our childhood, we were lucky to see 1 or maybe 2 "big" movies each year, now there's one every week of the summer.  Cartoons worked much the same way.  As a kid that grew up without satellite/cable until high school, my cartoons were on Saturday mornings and before/after school (that's when Joe/Transformers/MOTU were on).  These days kids can watch any number of shows any hour of the day between a dozen different channels.  I sort of doubt that many (although some, I'm sure) of today's kids are really going to be "tomorrow's collectors" either.  The world just doesn't work quite that way anymore it seems.  I even look at someone like my brother, who will be 19 this year and was right about 10 when he saw TPM (and was way into it) - he has piles of toys from things that were popular when he was a kid (SW, Batman, Turtles, Power Rangers, etc.) and could care less about them.

I think too, as you mentioned with the "collector" figures, Hasbro needs to change something up.  Obviously, they mentioned those collector-targeted figures specifically so they must be a problem for them.  We're more than happy to get them, but they need to figure out a better release number or think about going exclusive with them as well.  As much as we all wanted a Yarna figure, I bet most to all of us could still find several on the pegs and we're approaching a year later.  Some people have 30-50 in a single store from what I've read/heard.  I'm psyched about Willrow Hood as well, but I know at the same time he doesn't need to be 3 per case.  I know exclusives can often be a huge pain, but it might be an option for some "collector" figures.  I wasn't collecting for the beginning/middle of the POTF2 line quite yet, but I know a lot of the figures then (Oola, Muftak/Kabe, etc.) that were likely considered "collector figures" were exclusives, and weren't out there clogging the pegs.  Then again, with the way things are these days they would release Willrow Hood as a SWShop or HTS exclusive, and he'd cost $17 with a clamshell - and we don't want that either.

[JACKOFTRADZE]

Here is my assessment I been collecting since 1991 as a 15yr old Freshman, I seen the whole line evolve and stayed with it with a short hiatus in 2002.
Like our Economy everything runs in cycles

1995 to 97 - POTF2 is here. **** was off the hook with a minor SOTE speed bump but we had new SW figures again. I remember my early hunts, great memories.

1998 - The TRU Genocide of $2 figures and 1/2 priced vehicles from over production really kicked the line in the balls but it was gearing down for the return of SW in theaters……

Early 1999 - The ramp up of EP1 with the POTF2 line getting focused again with spiffy new features like a actual gun holsters promised some cool **** was coming. for EP1.

1999-2000 - EP1 the disaster of over hyping the movie. Need I saw more than it was a repeat of 1998 only more overproduced & more expensive figures. (The same price as they are now coincidentally.) The paint ops did take new heights during this time so there were some positives. Plus Midnight Madness started here.

2001 - A nice back to basics POTJ line that brought it back the collector. Still to this day a nice collection of figures for the time.

2002 - The "McFarlane" pre-posed syndrome with action features poisoned the line and nearly put a final nail in the coffin. Hasbro's logic was great here, since EP1 royally ****** **** up they were scared shitless for it to happen again. So in order to avoid that they came up with the idea to put in Kenner style action features to appeal to kids more. But to keep the collector engaged they posed them so they cannot ever fly a ship. NICE! You alienated the base. This was the only time I actually quit collecting SW figures for a brief time. no regrets

2003 to early 2004 - The Clone wars and the resurgence of Star Wars! SA articulation, army building, better sculpts and vehicles put the toys back on track. Combine that with the animated cartoon and the perfect storm of kid/collector appeal created that balance which spiked sales.

2004 - OTC $5 figures focusing on the OT featuring revamped vehicles, better detail & articulation that rocked the toy boat. Somehow they even made 8 year old figures look good again too. That got the base really excited. $5 figures. Did I mention $5 figures. $5...........the perfect price.

2005 - The rocket ship got faster with the mega success of ROTS! (It also helped that the movie did not suck although the dialogue is atrocious) Army building Clone crazies are born, sales are dynamite. Guess what $5 figures too! With spiffy stand to boot.

2006 - Army building is in full swing with a glut of product but we ate everything up and asked for more. $6 a figure but still cool.

2007 - TAC hits the scene. In my opinion the best collection of figures in the entire history of SW figures. Even the pack in coins ruled. I have nothing bad to say and the sales only proved how good it was. $6-$7 figures but worth it.

2008 - The trouble begins (Interestingly enough it's when the recession was hitting) The year started off late with a bumpy start, we lost the coins then hit a lull point with product releases. The Clone Wars mega glut that gave us so much **** including the biggest vehicle, the best Legacy waves, lots of exclusives in one shot after a serious drought was indulgence to the max. Plus a whole new line to collect (Which I have avoided). The year dragged after that with a pretty lame offering compared to the great ginormous summer release. # months later interest was waning as people realized how big their collections are now. Room factors in at some point. $7-8 a pop now it's not cool.

Which brings us to 2009. Hefty price increases, less value, another late start with so-so waves and a real recession is not exactly a formula for success. Yes, they covered a lot of ground but there is plenty left to do. In addition with all of the lines like new Marvel 3/75 scale figures, 25th Joes and all the other crap from Hasbro alone collectors are leaving for some "strange" for a brief time. They are bored of the relationship of collecting SW, it's dull and overdone needing a break to think things over. What did I mean by "strange" it's a term when you want to find some new pudy-tang on the side to mix it up. But just like that they will realize the relationship is not bad and will be back.

SW will be back on track in 2010 with the anticipation of the live action stuff. We all will be waiting in line at midnight for new SW toys even the deserters. Guys just accept this hobby for what this is, it's a mentally abusive relationship. You start out with the best intentions and things are great for awhile. Then come things like price raises, figures shortages & such that ruffles the feathers. You get pissed at Hasbro and leave the hobby. They make good like an apology with sweet new product offerings to lure you back to make you think like they changed, what happens next: the **** hits the fan again & you leave. You think you left for good but like any good abusive relationship you come back for more when your guard is down thinking "it will be different this time". Right now too many collectors guard are up, but rest assured they will be back. The pattern shows this.

[iFett]

2001 - A nice back to basics POTJ line that brought it back the collector. Still to this day a nice collection of figures for the time.

I would LOVE it if things could return to how this line was back in the day, but that will never happen.  My most favorite line to date since I got back into collecting.  I don't open my stuff, so I'm not counting articulation and what not, but I dug/still dig the packaging and everything was light and evenly spaced out.  Not like the mess that is Star Wars has been since that time.

[Ben]

I just don't see why Hasbro has to do 60 figures a year in the realistic style. They kind of did this to themselves by having so many years with that many figures out, but to have sales dwindle on this stuff was just inevitable. I mean, in a few months you see Yarna and Breha Organa on pegs. I didn't even know Breha's name until the action figure came out. I'm not quite as obsessive about SW as I used to be, but that's getting pretty obscure.

That and Hasbro is really competing against themselves for collector dollars. There was GI Joe from 2007 to now, Indy last year, and Marvel this year. I like all these lines, and I have so much SW **** that I spent my money on those other lines instead.

I wouldn't be bothered if Hasbro decided to do something like 20 Legacy figures a year and giving the lion's share of their resources to the animated line. It seems like this will be something they have to do to keep going.

[Brian]

2001 - A nice back to basics POTJ line that brought it back the collector. Still to this day a nice collection of figures for the time.

I would LOVE it if things could return to how this line was back in the day, but that will never happen.  My most favorite line to date since I got back into collecting.  I don't open my stuff, so I'm not counting articulation and what not, but I dug/still dig the packaging and everything was light and evenly spaced out.  Not like the mess that is Star Wars has been since that time.

I've often mentioned that I sort of miss the POTJ days as well.  That line was when I really, truly got into SW collecting.  I had picked up a number of POTF2 and EP1 figures/etc., but the POTJ I collected nearly in its entirety (figure wise).  That year was the year I got married, and we were on a very fixed budget, and I can remember collecting without any problems on a $25 to $30/month budget.  I like all the neat stuff we see these days (the figures/toys, while too expensive, are pretty well done anymore), but I'd be fine if they slowed down a bit (and made the releases more consistent throughout the year).  Like Ben mentioned, I don't know that we need 60 figures a year (not even including the CW stuff now), alongside all the vehicles, beasts, battle packs, deluxe, etc.  I think many collectors have gotten overwhelmed since the ROTS line (when we started the "big" release years), and it hasn't cut back since then.  It can become problematic not only from a spending standpoint, but from a space/display/storage standpoint as well.  I remember telling my wife after the ROTS spending bonanza "don't worry, there won't ever be a year with this much stuff again - it should only slow down from here", only to see non-movie years have the same number (or more) of releases.

[Darby]

Volume was an issue before this year.  Does it make sense for the legacy line to equal the volume of Clone Wars, which is current and introducing new designs/characters?  The pool of stuff left to do from the films really isn't that deep.  It is if you stretch it out.  To go back to theme wave/not to theme wave discussion, the up side of that is it does provide platforms for Yarna and ICMG where I think hasbro would otherwise be wary of doing them, but theme waves cannibalize movies.  I will be surprised to see everyone's top 10 lists for ESB this year, for instance.  We've been really spoiled by hasbro in the last few years, and I don't mind one bit.  But I don't mind either if the line gets leaner and meaner.

[jedi_master_sal]

JACKOFTRADZE: Well thought out post. I agree with just about everything in your post.

I'm not quite in agreement with the last couple of paragraphs with regards to people quitting and coming back. Though I may be an exception to that.

For myself, I've been steadily dwindling down my budget to the point that it's now only 25% of what it was 2 years ago. I have no plans/desires to return to the high spending days of years past. Regardless of quality of product, I'm not going to allow myself to buy 40 of a troop building anymore. Certainly not at full retail price. I can wait and pick it up for $1-3 dollars in a few years.

As far as the animated line goes, I just don't have the same attachment to that line as I do to the realistic line. ANd I don't want to mix and match my figures because I think it looks rather ridiculous to have them posed next to each other. But that's my own opinion.

Anyway, thanks for the good read JACKOFTRADZE.

[ruiner]

I would almost best my left nut

Why not go all the way?

[jedi_master_sal]

I would almost best my left nut

Why not go all the way?

Just in case....  (I happen to like my nuts right where they are. I don't need Hasbro displacing them...LOL) <----waits for the inevitable misquote

[Brian]

Volume was an issue before this year.  Does it make sense for the legacy line to equal the volume of Clone Wars, which is current and introducing new designs/characters?  The pool of stuff left to do from the films really isn't that deep.  It is if you stretch it out.  To go back to theme wave/not to theme wave discussion, the up side of that is it does provide platforms for Yarna and ICMG where I think hasbro would otherwise be wary of doing them, but theme waves cannibalize movies.  I will be surprised to see everyone's top 10 lists for ESB this year, for instance.  We've been really spoiled by hasbro in the last few years, and I don't mind one bit.  But I don't mind either if the line gets leaner and meaner.

Yeah, really the volume issue has been in full effect since 2005, the ROTS year.  The movie years were always bigger, but I think the last few years have almost had more figures/stuff than the ROTS movie year (which was huge itself).  Not that I haven't bought most of those figures up, but it would be ok to see a slow down too.

You make a good point about there basically being two "full" lines out at the same time now with Clone Wars and Legacy.  If it was one or the other, it would be a reasonable number to keep up with - but put together it is crazy.  Plus, it would be a lot easier to just buy one or the other I guess.  You're right about how we've been spoiled lately, and the character pool is getting smaller all the time it seems.  Heck, looking at some of the Wishlists anymore, there are a couple movies at least that are getting reasonably wrapped up.  Besides a number of Padmes and a few character re-dos, it is getting more obscure all the time.  I'm always up for something new, especially from the movies - so I hope it can continue for awhile yet.  I know I'd like to see the rest of the "ultimate" re-dos (Bespin Han, Hoth Luke/Leia, Skiff Lando, etc. just to name a few) - and really, I think a lot can be done in updating a number of POTF2 figures (Gamorrean Guard, Ackbar, Nunb, etc.)  Those are the types of things I'm looking forward to, so I hope Hasbro sticks with the movie-style stuff - even if it is more limited in releases per year - for awhile yet.

[CHEWIE]

I just find it funny that Hasbro says that there's not enough collector interest all of a sudden, yet 90% of what I see at retail since Christmas are Clone Wars and Legends figures. 

Personally, I think that Legacy figures sell fine.  Maybe Hasbro's profit margin is a nickel lower per figure because they're not all repacks like the Legends stuff, have a droid part and also have more detail and articulation than the CW figures, so they try and put that extra nickel back in their pocket by instead producing more of the other two sublines.