Fun with the Military!

[Jesse James]

So, I'm really into the military aspect of Star Wars...

Who else is?  Anyone else ever like doing anything fun with fan-fiction or sketching?  I've futzed around with making my own characters...  Designing my own structure to Imperial and Rebel ranks.  Like different troop types and stuff.

Anyone else into these extremely dorky things?  Has a habit such as mine ruined your dating life, and strengthened your right (or left, depending on what handed you are) hand to the point you can crush coal into steel?

Or are you really cool cuz your mom says so, just like mine tells me!  Yay!   

So do you have fun with this as much as I do anyway?  It's probably THE reason I'm so into Force Commander and the X-Wing series of games.

[Vator]

Oh most certainly, I've made a few stories, dioramas and draw the crap constantly. I must have well over 1000 pages of random military designs.

Latley though I've had more real world designs with a Star Wars twist. I'll post some if I can find some of the good ones. However, I do have some interseting hybrid pics I made at 3 AM a few weeks ago...Star Destroyers mainly...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Vator/Nova.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Vator/VeSD.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Vator/sd.jpg

---------------------Fighters------------------------------

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Vator/TrieFighter.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Vator/Lanx.jpg

------------------Random--------------------------------

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Vator/cc.jpg

[jokabofe]

those are pretty cool, vator. what did you use to make them? i especially like the t.i.e. shield, and this part of the description: "... is a cumbersome and rather useless vechile." 

[Vator]

Heh, just used a lazy paste in Microsoft Paint. Adavanced I know 

[Jesse James]

Those are indeed cool Vator.

I like seeing others who go nuts for the military side of Star Wars...  It's a must that you play some of the games then though.

To me, the WEG books really expanded upon the military aspect of the films a good bit.  Lots of nice images, good stories and characters.  DIagrams of bases and battlefields.  Fun stuff.

[Paul]

I think this is the thing that kept me in the game all this time.

I can recall  back in the "Olde Dayes" I had imagined all sorts of Branches and Ranks.....then after some time (lets say 20 years) I've actually gotten some experience with Tactics, Strategy, Rank Structure etc and instead of all the Book Learnin making me like toys/star wars less...it has made me revisit my old chlidhood creations and modify them.

As far as any Fan Fic pictures or stories.  I don't have one iota of talent for the art stuff.  I always had wished I did (if you look at any of my notes from High School, College or Law School, all the pages are full of doodles but nothing worth sharing)

But after re-reading the X-Wing Rogue Squadron Series (it is the only Series I can get into) I have finally formulated the plot for a Fan Fic story.

I'd share it here but people falling asleep at their computers or getting sick is never a good thing.

Besides, you've got to enjoy any Military that requires you to wear the Riding boots as part of your uniform. 

[Vator]

Thanks Jesse!


So what's the deal with the Imperial Naval Troopers? Are they onboard security, or like the Russian Naval Infantry?

[Jesse James]

I consider them akin to the Marines of old...  They perform ship's security primarily, but also function as working crewman aboard the ship (performing various specified duties/tasks).  They're a bit more valuable than a "grunt" soldier in that regard because they have skills beyond fighting.

That's how I've always viewed them personally.  Akin to the redcoats on British Naval vessels in the 18th and 19th century perhaps...  Like on Horatio Hornblower.  They seem to work anything that has a remote function in the navy.  Like even planet-side stations, such as the shield on Endor, which was directly linked to the DS2.

[Paul]

I was watching Master and Commander the other day and thought the same thing. (as far as the Red Coat correlation).

If you view the DS and DSII as more Naval Stations it is especially easy to see them as Naval Support troops.  THey aren't Naval Aviators, they aren't Naval Gunners or even Engineers, but I could see that particular branch handling Ship and Shoreside Security and the other mundane or "un-skilled" positions required in the IMP Navy.  And best of all you can tell they aren't CLONES.  But the obviously ran the Brig/Prison Levels on the DS and along with the Stormies ran security.

They are (and have been since my Death Squad Trooper in 78) my favorite non-Stromtrooper Character in the whole OT. 

I just wish there was "Canon" on uniform color...

[Jesse James]

Well Paul, what do you mean by their canon on color?

Theoretically, there's 3 "Naval Trooper" uniforms in the film, though the one's been debated.  I've seen a picture (Here comes a blue/brown coat debate!  ) of a DST standing in one of those circular control stations in the shot where Tarkin/Motti blow up Alderaan.  He's in a grey tunic like most Imperial Officers (can't see a rank badge though), with the black DST helmet.

Could he be a Naval Trooper Officer?  The equivalent of the Stormtrooper Officer who Veers told, "You may start your landing", perhaps?

It seems to me also that Naval troopers can don the helmet, or not, and if not then wear the black kepi.  This uniform is either shared, or these men all share the same branch of service within the Empire, as Stormtroopers seem to be commanded by men in black uniforms (tunics/jagdpurs or Slacks), which is also one of the canon Imperial Naval Trooper uniforms.

That's two uniforms.  The third is a seemingly black jumpsuit ala the Imperial TIE Pilot's, or Imperial Gunners suit, but with the black helmet.  These guys were on Endor, and even though military continuity fell apart, they can still be fit in easy enough...  Perhaps this is a uniform the Naval Trooper dons in a situation where he may get more "dirty" with his mundane job?  I wouldn't say they're a different level of rank, or a different type of Naval Trooper myself, but just maybe working a grittier job than a guy who has guard duty in the detention center.

I personally believe the grey uniformed one is an officer then...  A bit higher in rank, and that'd explain why he's so close to Tarkin and the gang.  I'd imagine if he didn't have his com helmet on, he too would wear a black cap as well, making for a very interesting looking color combination.  The Imperial grey uniform with a black kepi.  Sweet!

Kepi/uniform colors DO seem to have some relevance as well, as some bridge crewman in the grey coveralls are seen with black kepi's, while others wear the darker grey officer kepi like Piett's hat, or Ozzel's.  Why, I'm not sure.  Could be a couple reasons.

Then the guys in the jumpsuits are a mystery unto themselves...  The jumpsuit transcends Navy and Army as well, though only the grey one it seems.  Black jumpsuits seem strictly stuck to the Navy (DST's, Gunners, TIE Pilots), while black tunics is unknown.  Maybe they adhere only to the Navy and Stormtroopers?

The other thing then is the uniforms of officers...  There's pants over the boots, pants tucked in.  There's straight-leg pants, and jagdpurs...  There's the black pants/white coat (and I assume black kepi) of ISB...  There's the debate if the uniform is more a green than grey (I lean more towards a greyer color rather than olive, but I can see a HINT of green.  A very German Wermacht WW2-ish look).  Then if you count EU (And I'd like this to fit in myself) there's also a mustard brown uniform...  I push these guys as being STRICTLY army unit officers of some sort, but it is indeed an EU outfit).

But back to the grey jumpsuits...  There's them with black and darker grey hats.  There's guys who seem to do menial technical jobs, while others obviously do bridge crew work (bud there's also guys in some kind of black uniform that work the bridge as well...  Who/what are they?).

Then of course there is also the use of the Jumpsuit as the AT-ST Driver or in EU, what is known as an Imperial Army Regular...  AT-ST Drivers are just a separately trained troop then?  Other ideas think the AT-ST Driver and AT-AT Driver share a uniform and their differences (helmet, etc.) are the differences in a "harsh environment" suit and one that is not...  not sure how I feel about that.  I think they're separate personally, but I'm just not sure either.

Imperial uniforms are plain, yet incredibly diverse.  I dig that.

[Paul]

ah the intricacies of the Imperial Navy Uniform.

My 3 color's I was contemplating were all in Tunic Form.  Gray, Green and Black.

We've definately seen the Black Tunic (DS Detention Block) the Gray/Green debate is where #2 and #3 come in.  I am going to look for the photo of the guy behind a control panel who looks VERY Green (albiet Olive) but not the ambiguous Feldgrau of the German WWII Tunics (I've seen originals that ranged from Slate Gray to Sage Green to even Brown due to the low quality/late war materials).

I always assumed the higher ranks in the Imperial Army kind of had that "Liberty" with their uniforms that Rank has had in it various Military figures in History (Custer, Pieper, Monty, Any Southern Officer of the ACW, Any General of a South American Banana Republic, Patton, Bradley).  Most German Generals wore the Riding Boots as a sign that they were "Old Guard"...

I'd just like to have enough on screen evidence to justify the big H making us variations.

I didn't even count the Jump Suit with Helmet Combo from ROTJ cuz I didn't even notice it.  I just assumed they were just like the regular DST.

So for argument sake the variations seen include:

With Helmet:

Black Tunic, Jodphurs and Riding Boots
Black Tunic, Baggie Pants Jack Boots (or am I just making that up in my mind?)
Gray/Green Tunic, Jodphurs and Riding Boots
Black Jump Suit and Jack Boots

I would tend to agree with your supposition that the Gray tuniced DST is of the officer class (regardless of missing rank tabs).   I'll have to watch the movies over the next few days (like I needed an excuse) and see what I can pick out.


As far as those that we see armed, it does appear that most have the Rebel Fleet trooper type Blaster Pistol as oppossed to the Stormtrooper Blaster (E-11).

[Jesse James]

Imperial arms tend to vary Paul...

Everything from a DL-44-esque blaster (though not exact) to the gun that Dr. Evazan had, PLUS the Rebel pistol and the E-11 (possibly).  Then the EU has adopted Hasbro's "fan-fic" pistol that the Tarkin fig came with too, if you can believe that.

It seems reasonable that sidearms vary, but I'd say the Naval Troops use the Rebel Fleet Trooper sidearm, or the E-11, most commonly.  The others are there though it seems... 

[Matt_Fury]

I've tried to analyze the Attack on the first Death Star using the Doctrine and Strategies I've learned in my 12 years+ of Air Force experience.

All I can think of is that 2/3 of the Republic fighter pilots are completely retarted!  WTF were they thinking just flying around behind the lead ship in the trench so they could be shot at???  Why not set up a CAP over the trench and keep all the TIEs out of the area??

[Jesse James]

Actually have a working theory on that...

Porkins, if you disregard the BS EU that he tinkers iwth his ship and it crashed, and if you go with the film's context which IMPLIES he's caught in crossfire from the surface, is the key...  Another instance I feel implies my theory's the "reason" is Luke's "getting singed" on his strafe run.

The theory I have working is that the closer you get to the surface, the more intensely tight the crossfire produced by the surface guns is, and the easier it is for the Empire to shoot you down with their gunnery teams.

This applies somewhat to Earth Naval/Air combat from the 20th Cent...  Low "Deck" level attacks often were met with more accurate fire, etc...  One could assume SW gun turrets are maybe more accurate as well anyway.

The attack run on the trench then requires a sharp dive into the trench, eliminating the majority of the surface guns being able to draw fire on you...  The key is the thought that the gunnery crews on the surface ARE accurate enough to shoot fighters down (as the film implies that they do with Porkins, and almost burn Luke too), but that the fighters are maintaining a certain "ceiling" while drawing the Imperial fighters away as best they can, and waiting for run after run to take place.

Some EU helps support it too, namely the flight sims...  The closer you get to any capital ship, the more intense and accurate the fire is from its gun turrets.  They can really paste you good, and firing warheads is a trick all its own where you have to fly in close and "dumbfire" most of the time to get an accurate hit, as the warheads are relatively easy to shoot down when they're flying at a locked target from a distance.

The exhaust port attack would've been somewhat of a "dumbfire" shot (for Luke it was completely so) with the more simplistic targeting computer helping the pilot manually aim, rather than the EU "lock" system the HUD uses, but which can throw the warhead's aim off...  Hard to explain really, but if you've played the game it actually makes sense and jives with the films even though the targeting screen isn't an available feature in the games at all (save for the Rogue Squad games).

In that sense, the attack on the DS1 makes complete sense, but you just have to buy into the DS Gunners being accurate at close range, which I do tend to agree with.  I hate that BS EU story that says Porkins screwed his controls up and THAT is why he's offed.  Give them gunners some credit dammit!

[Mobile Artillery]

I want to make a few comments toward the Naval Troopers since it's a topic that's been debated to death over at RS.  I already lost my post on this so I'll be concise and to the point...

First off, we see basically four variations of the uniform over the course of the OT.  The black jumpsuit and "cockroach" helmet, the black tunic and helmet, black tunic and hat, and the olive tunic and helmet.  Now these are my thoughts toward the subject.  Jesse, you make a good point that the Troopers in jumpsuits seem to be doing all the "dirty" work, save on scene in ROTJ. 

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/239/3490/640/Traffic%20Operations.jpg (copy and paste this and see if it works, otherwise click here; JD is new to me. )  It's a short shot where three DS Troopers are directing traffic into the DS2.  The two guys in back are wearing the typical jumpsuit, but the one in front wears a black tunic.  It's also mentionable that he is the one who does all the talking.  So they're basically all doing the same job, yet  there are deviations in uniform.  So it's an equally (if not more ) plausible assumption that the man in tunic is of slightly higher rank than the others (and later on in the scene another one walks up in the same black tunic and standard kepi; he's obviously a supervisor of some sort).  What I'm getting at here is that the tunics are apparently indicitive of slight seiniority of some sort.

Let's mention shuttle pilots.  The two we see in the beginning of ROTJ are widely agreed upon as officers.  Decipher can back this claim.  They also happen to be wearing tunics and kepis.  I think not that the generic shuttle pilot would be wearing tunics; why not standard jumpsuits (though the details may vary depending on the mission at hand)?

In fact, the jumpsuit worn by Navy Trooper grunts is the same as AT-ST drivers, AT-AT drivers, TIE Pilots, Naval crewmen, and techs with little or no variation.  Evidently it must be relatively cheap to manufacture within the Empire (or whithin the galaxy; some Star Wars costumers have studied X-wing pilots' uniforms and found it to be closely related).  So I may be onto something.

The Imperial cloth cap in standard uniform is probably exclusive to officers so there is no confusion between officers and enlisted.  Therefore the fatigue/undress uniform of DS Troopers would more likely than not be some shade of olive.  Bear in mind that the Naval crewmen who work the bridges of SDs wear olive caps and the non-combat attire of TIE Pilots is an olive uniform as well (as depicted in the TIE Fighter games.  I consider the Starfighter Forces to be part of the Navy as they rely heavily upon it for transport).

EDIT: Link fixed.... I think.